Welcome to the 18th year of operation of the Microscopy ListServer a free service to the world wide microscopy community, sponsored jointly by your Friendly Neighborhood SysOp and the Microscopy Society of America.
It was another productive year for all of us. During 2009, the ListServer delivered 2270 messages to ~ 3000 subscribers (} 325 Gb of Email) around the world, with only minimal hassels for most of you (that I know about).
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I have also just resurrected the Surplus Equipment Listings. That service ( which can be used to advertise equipment for sale vs equipment to be given away) was previously located on the MSA WWW site and was discontinued. You can now find the Surplus Equipment listings under the On-Line DataBases option along with WWW site and Meeting/Conference registrations at the URL:
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Nestor Your Friendly Neighborhood SysOp
==============================Original Headers============================== 11, 24 -- From zaluzec-at-aaem.amc.anl.gov Fri Jan 1 09:23:02 2010 11, 24 -- Received: from aaem.amc.anl.gov (aaem.amc.anl.gov [146.139.72.3]) 11, 24 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o01FN2MV017855 11, 24 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Fri, 1 Jan 2010 09:23:02 -0600 11, 24 -- Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) 11, 24 -- by aaem.amc.anl.gov (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40AE711E12D; 11, 24 -- Fri, 1 Jan 2010 09:23:02 -0600 (CST) 11, 24 -- X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at localhost.localnet 11, 24 -- Received: from aaem.amc.anl.gov ([127.0.0.1]) 11, 24 -- by localhost (aem005.amc.anl.gov [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) 11, 24 -- with ESMTP id dsidPmoEFEms; Fri, 1 Jan 2010 09:23:01 -0600 (CST) 11, 24 -- Received: from [206.69.208.22] (msdvpn005.msd.anl.gov [130.202.251.5]) 11, 24 -- by aaem.amc.anl.gov (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 532CC11E121; 11, 24 -- Fri, 1 Jan 2010 09:23:01 -0600 (CST) 11, 24 -- Message-Id: {99E58042-CA6E-4737-8E62-0DA896992337-at-aaem.amc.anl.gov} 11, 24 -- From: "Nestor J. Zaluzec" {zaluzec-at-aaem.amc.anl.gov} 11, 24 -- To: microscopy-at-microscopy.com 11, 24 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes 11, 24 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 11, 24 -- Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) 11, 24 -- Subject: Administrivia: Happy New Year - 2010 11, 24 -- Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2010 09:23:00 -0600 11, 24 -- Cc: "Nestor J. Zaluzec" {zaluzec-at-aaem.amc.anl.gov} 11, 24 -- X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) ==============================End of - Headers==============================
I have been lucky. We have obtained an FEI Quanta 600 SEM with an environmental chamber from an affiliated institution. This being New York City where space is always at a premium, we located a room, near enough to the rest of my facility but which has some EMI field issues. I've gotten information from a number of manufacturers and I am trying to make a well-informed decision about what I get: type (cage vs whole room) as well as vendor. May I ask those of you with such systems to respond to me off-list about what you have? Please answer the following questions: Which system? What vendor? How long have you had it? Has it been reliable? Is it easy to use? Are you happy with your system?
thanks much! Lee
-- Lee Cohen-Gould, M.S. Sr. Staff Associate in Biochemistry and Cell & Developmental Biology Director, Electron Microscopy & Histology and Optical Microscopy Core Facilities Weill Cornell Medical College
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Question: Aurion ImmunoGold Silver Staining Workshop University of Florida College of Medicine Feb 1-3, 2010
Aurion and Electron Microscopy Sciences will hold their workshop on Immuno Gold Silver Staining at the University of Florida College of Medicine from February 1 to 3, 2010. The course objectives are to provide researchers with the opportunity to learn the theory and practice of immunogold labeling and to promote technology exchange and research collaboration. Participants are encourage to bring their own specimens to process under expert guidance.
For more information contact: Stacie Kirsch stacie-at-ems-secure.com 215-412-8402 www.emsdiasum.com/microscopy
I've done cancer cells for SEM, although not on carbon nanotubes. Fixation & processing was: 1 hour in 1.25% glutaraldehyde in 0.1 M PO4 buffer + 1% monomeric tannic acid, room temperature [optional: wash in buffer, then post-fix in 1% OsO4 in either water or buffer -- usually didn't need this step] dehydrate through ethanol; started at 30%, but may need to start at 10 or 15% depending on your cells, then in 10% steps through 90%, then 95%, then 3 X 100%. 5 minute steps, assuming non-confluent monolayer of cells. Then critical point dry, 3 soaks of 5 minutes each, 5 soaks may be needed. Note: on CNTs ... critical point drying may affect how the cells sit on the tube forest. I have no good idea, just a feeling CPD will be OK. But. HMDS (hexamethyldisilizane) drying may work better here. After the final 100% ethanol, go 1:1 absolute ethanol:HMDS then 3 X 100% HMDS, 10 minutes each, blot of excell fluid *but leave samples just covered* and air dry. NOTE: HMDS *must* be used in a fume hood.
Mount & sputter coat as usual.
Phil
} Dear All, } } I would like to find out if there is an easy and effective procedure which } would allow me to prepare samples of cancer cells grown on CNT forests for } observation under SEM. I will be using an CZ EVO 40 (LaB6 filament) and I } have never worked on soft materials. } } Happy holidays and new years to you all } } Erman Bengu } } ================================= } Erman Bengu } } Assistant Professor of Chemistry } Department of Chemistry } Bilkent University } } Mailing Address: } Bilkent University, } Department of Chemistry, } 06800, Bilkent, Ankara } Turkey } } Office: SB #311 } E-mail: bengu_AT_fen.bilkent.edu.tr } Phone (Office): +90 (312) 290-2153 } (Lab1): +90 (312) 290-2663 } (Lab2): +90 (312) 290-3332 } Fax: +90 (312) 266-4068 } Web: http://www.fen.bilkent.edu.tr/~bengu -- Philip Oshel Microscopy Facility Supervisor Biology Department 024C Brooks Hall Central Michigan University Mt. Pleasant, MI 48859 (989) 774-3576
==============================Original Headers============================== 5, 26 -- From oshel1pe-at-cmich.edu Tue Jan 5 11:51:04 2010 5, 26 -- Received: from ob4.cmich.edu (ob4.cmich.edu [141.209.20.25]) 5, 26 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o05Hp4QB027539 5, 26 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 11:51:04 -0600 5, 26 -- Received: from egatea.central.cmich.local ([141.209.15.74]) 5, 26 -- by ob4.cmich.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id o05HoppR008716; 5, 26 -- Tue, 5 Jan 2010 12:50:59 -0500 5, 26 -- Received: from [141.209.160.249] ([141.209.160.249]) by egatea.central.cmich.local with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); 5, 26 -- Tue, 5 Jan 2010 12:50:58 -0500 5, 26 -- Mime-Version: 1.0 5, 26 -- Message-Id: {f0624080ec7692a906435-at-[141.209.160.249]} 5, 26 -- In-Reply-To: {200912240722.nBO7Mi30027120-at-ns.microscopy.com} 5, 26 -- References: {200912240722.nBO7Mi30027120-at-ns.microscopy.com} 5, 26 -- Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 12:50:56 -0500 5, 26 -- To: bengu-at-fen.bilkent.edu.tr 5, 26 -- From: Philip Oshel {oshel1pe-at-cmich.edu} 5, 26 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] SEM of cancer cells 5, 26 -- Cc: Microscopy-at-microscopy.com 5, 26 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" 5, 26 -- X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Jan 2010 17:50:58.0799 (UTC) FILETIME=[A34F97F0:01CA8E2F] 5, 26 -- X-Bayes-Prob: 0.0001 (Score -0.5, tokens from: -at--at-RPTN, default) 5, 26 -- X-Spam-Score: -4.40 () [Hold at 6.00] L_EXCH_MF,RDNS_NONE,Bayes(0.0001,-0.5) 5, 26 -- X-CanIt-Geo: ip=141.209.15.74; country=US; region=MI; city=Mount Pleasant; postalcode=48859; latitude=43.5647; longitude=-84.8473; metrocode=513; areacode=989; http://maps.google.com/maps?q=43.5647,-84.8473&z=6 5, 26 -- X-CanItPRO-Stream: default 5, 26 -- X-Canit-Stats-ID: 25291343 - d220173fda20 - 20100105 5, 26 -- X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) on 141.209.20.25 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
I am considering the advantages/disadvantages of the traditional, LN2-cooled EDS detectors versus the Peltier or electronically cooled detectors.
One huge advantage is obvious: no LN2 filling needed. But, I am concerned about the relative longevity (durability) of the electronically cooled system versus the tried-and-true LN2 systems. Anyone care to comment on this?
Also, with the Peltier cooled units, can one cycle the cooling on when needed, and then back off when finished?
Thanks.
-- John J. Bozzola, Ph.D., Director I.M.A.G.E. (Integrated Microscopy & Graphics Expertise Southern Illinois University 750 Communications Drive Carbondale, IL 62901 Phone: 618-453-3730
==============================Original Headers============================== 5, 15 -- From bozzola-at-siu.edu Wed Jan 6 15:01:13 2010 5, 15 -- Received: from mail-yw0-f182.google.com (mail-yw0-f182.google.com [209.85.211.182]) 5, 15 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o06L1CFK007725 5, 15 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 15:01:12 -0600 5, 15 -- Received: by ywh12 with SMTP id 12so18720862ywh.21 5, 15 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 06 Jan 2010 13:01:12 -0800 (PST) 5, 15 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 5, 15 -- Received: by 10.150.159.6 with SMTP id h6mr40712510ybe.280.1262811671916; Wed, 5, 15 -- 06 Jan 2010 13:01:11 -0800 (PST) 5, 15 -- Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 15:01:11 -0600 5, 15 -- Message-ID: {ebc2299e1001061301w4dfac703y5b21da19995f5dba-at-mail.gmail.com} 5, 15 -- Subject: EM: LN2 cooled versus electronically cooled EDS detectors 5, 15 -- From: John Bozzola {bozzola-at-siu.edu} 5, 15 -- To: MSAListserver {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 5, 15 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
The Peltier cooled SDD EDS units are totally awesome.
There are only a few specific applications that Si(Li) is better than SDD. The current generation of SDDs are terrific. Yes, you can turn them off when not needed and on when needed. Most makers' models cool down for use in minutes if you want to work that way. You can also shut off the EDS PC if desired. The total power drain for the Peltier cooler controller and PC is quite low. I figure that a typical Peltier controller uses about 20 Watts when temperature is stable, but this depends on whether the Peltier is a single, dual or triple stack. The small area SDDs are usually single Peltier. My current 40mm^2 SDD typically runs at about 2.5V and 4A for the Peltier stack.
About the PC: These are dual or quad core of at least 2.5GHz with 2GB-3GB DDR3 DRAM. In order to process the higher counts, a faster PC is needed, otherwise, the performance benefits of the SDD are lost.
The SDD units are very reliable, small and able to produce high cps. The newer DPPs also are able to process these higher cps values if it is in a high performance PC. A real decision is whether to get the new PC from the EDS maker pre-loaded with WinXP Pro or Win7. As you know, moving to Win7 from XP cannot be done unless Vista is installed over XP first. Personally, I would not get Win7 until users have debugged it to a lower hassle factor. Some EDS softwhere (I like that catchy term) will handle 64-bit OS while others may stick with 32-bits for now. I don't know if there is any significant difference in throughput.
The down side is that your legacy EDS system will have to all be gone...nothing remains of the old system (detector, DPP, PC or software). For EDAX software, the Genesis program is still used but requires a newer version which is included in the new SDD package of items. This is probably the same situation for other makers.
The last item of interest is the digital scan generator. Some makers may be able to use the old one. EDAX has an SG-II which captures one channel of video up to 6400x4000 pixels and a SG-III which is the same resolution but can capture two channels at the same time. This is handy for capturing SE and BSE at the same time and in perfect sync and alignment.
gary g.
At 01:03 PM 1/6/2010, you wrote:
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==============================Original Headers============================== 11, 21 -- From gary-at-gaugler.com Wed Jan 6 15:59:08 2010 11, 21 -- Received: from smtp1.mc.surewest.net (qsmtp.mc.surewest.net [66.60.130.145]) 11, 21 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with SMTP id o06Lx87W023646 11, 21 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 15:59:08 -0600 11, 21 -- Message-Id: {201001062159.o06Lx87W023646-at-ns.microscopy.com} 11, 21 -- Received: (qmail 28134 invoked from network); 6 Jan 2010 14:44:37 -0800 11, 21 -- Received: by simscan 1.1.0 ppid: 28125, pid: 28130, t: 0.0976s 11, 21 -- scanners: regex: 1.1.0 attach: 1.1.0 11, 21 -- Received: from unknown (HELO thor.gaugler.com) (66.60.171.211) 11, 21 -- by smtp1 with SMTP; 6 Jan 2010 14:44:37 -0800 11, 21 -- X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 11, 21 -- Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 13:58:59 -0800 11, 21 -- To: bozzola-at-siu.edu 11, 21 -- From: Gary Gaugler {gary-at-gaugler.com} 11, 21 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] EM: LN2 cooled versus electronically cooled 11, 21 -- EDS detectors 11, 21 -- Cc: MSA listserver {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 11, 21 -- In-Reply-To: {201001062103.o06L3cxs010016-at-ns.microscopy.com} 11, 21 -- References: {201001062103.o06L3cxs010016-at-ns.microscopy.com} 11, 21 -- Mime-Version: 1.0 11, 21 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed ==============================End of - Headers==============================
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Email: krivanek-at-nion.com Name: Ondrej Krivanek
Organization: Nion Co.
Title-Subject: [Filtered] position available
Message: Nion R&D (www.nion.com/about.html) has an immediate opening for an instrumentation specialist to work on developing a high-energy resolution monochromated scanning transmission electron microscope (STEM) system. The instrument will use a monochromator/chromatic aberration corrector of a radically new design (Krivanek et al., Phil. Trans. R. Soc. A vol 367 (2009) 3683-3697), in a collaborative project with Arizona State university. It promises to revolutionize electron microscopy and electron energy loss spectroscopy (EELS) by combining meV level energy resolution with Angstrom-level spatial resolution, as well as improved spatial resolution at low primary energies.
The specialist will work within the Nion design team on all aspects of the monochromator project, from evaluating the electron-optical properties of candidate systems, to mechanical and electrical design, and the construction, testing, and demonstration of the systemís performance on key materials problems. The ideal candidate will have an outstanding research record and be deeply interested in electron-optical instrumentation and its applications.
Nion offers an informal, friendly and efficient working environment with a track record of producing revolutionary instruments that is second to none, and a competitive salary and comprehensive benefits. Send your resume and an electronic copy of your two principal publications to Dr. O.L. Krivanek (krivanek-at-nion.com).
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Title-Subject: [Filtered] thin section then GUS staining
Question: Hi all Has anyone done GUS (B-glucuronidase) staning following embedding and sectioning with paraffin? I have done whole tissue staining with good luck, but need to get into maturing seeds of grain crops to see expression. I am thinking that Those are thick and hard to penetrate. Thank you for your help. Michelle
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Organization: Battelle National Biodefense Institute/NBACC
Title-Subject: [Filtered] EM research assistant position open at BNBI/NBACC
Question: There is an immediate opening for a research assistant in electron microscopy in Frederick MD at Battelle National Biodefense Institute. The applicant should have basic specimen prep skills for TEM and SEM. The position works with investigators to identify, characterize and analyze a variety of viral, bacterial, fungal and animal tissue samples. Experience with electron microscopes and all accessory EM equipment is a plus. The successful applicant will be working in an exciting new lab where the mission is to help protect the nation against bioterrorism. The National Biodefense Analysis and Countermeasures Center is located at Fort Detrick, and is a federally funded research and development center for Dept of Homeland Security. See requirements for employment in the posting below.
For more information, please see the following link. http://www.bnbi.org/careers.html (Research Assistant, Electron Microscopy #192)
Our old Balzers freeze-etcher/evaporator is being retired. I am offering the free-standing Balzers control units to any interested party willing to arrange (and pay) for shipping. The instruments are located in Philadelphia, PA, and were functional last time I used them (about 2 years ago).
Quartz Crystal Thin Film Thickness Monitor Freeze Etching Device Control Unit GA-1 Control Unit EVM 052 (high voltage control)
If interested, please contact me.
Thanks,
--
Michal Jarnik, Ph.D. Fox Chase Cancer Center Philadelphia, PA
==============================Original Headers============================== 8, 17 -- From Michal.Jarnik-at-fccc.edu Fri Jan 8 08:42:31 2010 8, 17 -- Received: from azah.fccc.edu (azah.fccc.edu [131.249.4.237]) 8, 17 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o08EgVQ4008304 8, 17 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 08:42:31 -0600 8, 17 -- Received: from emf1.dyn.fccc.edu (emf1.dyn.fccc.edu [10.40.12.156]) 8, 17 -- (authenticated bits=0) 8, 17 -- by azah.fccc.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o08EgT2k008167 8, 17 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 09:42:29 -0500 (EST) 8, 17 -- Message-ID: {4B474455.70301-at-fccc.edu} 8, 17 -- Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 09:42:29 -0500 8, 17 -- From: Michal Jarnik {Michal.Jarnik-at-fccc.edu} 8, 17 -- User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) 8, 17 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 8, 17 -- To: microscopy-at-microscopy.com 8, 17 -- Subject: Balzers parts free to good home 8, 17 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed 8, 17 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ==============================End of - Headers==============================
The list has been a little slow lately, so here's a topic for potential discussion:
On occasion we look at things in our scopes that have no good basis for reference---no previous publications, no other EM images to compare with---you get the picture. My method has been to take representative images of what is there, even if the images have a wide variety of things in them that don't resemble each other or what the sample supposedly "should" look like.
It's that "should" that is the problem. It sometimes happens when we send these images to the clients that they grab onto whatever looks like what they want to see, pretty much ignore anything else, then starting making assertions about the images that go waaaay beyond what the image can support and want to plug all that into a publication. (I've had people get all Eureka! about the "champagning" artifact on a negatively-stained prep, for example.)
So the question is, if the EM operator has a reasonable suspicion, but not a certainty, that an image is showing artifact or something that is not really the part of the sample the researcher wants to see, how should that be handled? Should we send the images along with our caveats and risk having them having them published with interpretations that go beyond the data and may just be dead wrong? Or should we self-censor and not send these images?
Remember, I'm not talking about things that we KNOW are artifact or garbage. That's a clear call. I'm talking about imaging things that may not have been seen before, and nobody really knows what they look like (but they think they do), thereby making it difficult to separate artifact from real data. What we do now is send the images with our comments and hope that the client isn't so desperate for a publication that they ignore our cautions. We are virtually never listed as co-authors so that's not really an issue, but still.....I like clean science.
How do other members of the Collective handle these cases?
Cheers and stay warm!
Randy
Randy Tindall Senior EM Specialist Electron Microscopy Core Facility---We Do Small Well! W125 Veterinary Medicine University of Missouri Columbia, MO 65211 Tel: (573) 882-8304 Fax: (573) 884-2227 Email: tindallr-at-missouri.edu Web: http://www.emc.missouri.edu On-line calendar: http://biotech.rnet.missouri.edu/cgi-bin/Calcium310.pl?Op=Splash&Amount=Week&NavType=Both&Type=TimePlan Sons of Norway: http://www.sofn.com
==============================Original Headers============================== 13, 30 -- From TindallR-at-missouri.edu Fri Jan 8 10:43:48 2010 13, 30 -- Received: from mxtip01-umsystem-out.um.umsystem.edu (mxtip01-umsystem-out.um.umsystem.edu [209.106.229.49]) 13, 30 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o08Ghlvw029554 13, 30 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 10:43:47 -0600 13, 30 -- X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true 13, 30 -- X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ai0FACfvRkvRauUp/2dsb2JhbACaMIILrSEBCYUfhV2CRoFpBA 13, 30 -- Received: from unknown (HELO um-nsmtpout1.um.umsystem.edu) ([209.106.229.41]) 13, 30 -- by mxtip01-missouri-out.um.umsystem.edu with ESMTP; 08 Jan 2010 10:43:47 -0600 13, 30 -- Received: from UM-THUB01.um.umsystem.edu ([209.106.230.181]) by um-nsmtpout1.um.umsystem.edu with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); 13, 30 -- Fri, 8 Jan 2010 10:43:47 -0600 13, 30 -- Received: from um-email06.um.umsystem.edu ([169.254.1.71]) by 13, 30 -- UM-THUB01.um.umsystem.edu ([209.106.230.181]) with mapi; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 13, 30 -- 10:43:46 -0600 13, 30 -- From: "Tindall, Randy D." {TindallR-at-missouri.edu} 13, 30 -- To: "microscopy-at-microscopy.com" {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 13, 30 -- Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 10:43:45 -0600 13, 30 -- Subject: EM imaging: Self-censorship? 13, 30 -- Thread-Topic: EM imaging: Self-censorship? 13, 30 -- Thread-Index: AcqQgb56tpTajBGETxiqxqY+yQSBPQ== 13, 30 -- Message-ID: {9422E68616A7C648A281C0B5CD22A4B8224C4659E9-at-UM-EMAIL06.um.umsystem.edu} 13, 30 -- Accept-Language: en-US 13, 30 -- Content-Language: en-US 13, 30 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: 13, 30 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 13, 30 -- acceptlanguage: en-US 13, 30 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 13, 30 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 13, 30 -- X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Jan 2010 16:43:47.0452 (UTC) FILETIME=[BFAE1BC0:01CA9081] 13, 30 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 13, 30 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o08Ghlvw029554 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
Michelle, The best images I have seen in the literature of Gus stained sections are from material embedded in technovit. This is (I think) glycol methacrylate, which is friendly to water soluble things. It is also possible that PEG sections would work, but I have not seen images. Organic solvents tend to remove the GUS reaction product. It definitely won't work in butyl methyl methacrylate (we tried) and unlikely to work with epoxies. In these scenarios, the staining is done first and then everything is embeded and sectioned. I expect that the GUS enzyme would loose activity after fixation and embedding, even in paraffin. I don't know that for sure. And perhaps it could be tissue specific. For a tried and true method, I would look at Technovit. Ben Scheres lab have used this successfully as have many others. Good luck, Tobias
} --- } } Email: mjamison-at-caissonlabs.com } Name: Michelle Jamison } } Organization: plant labratory } } Title-Subject: [Filtered] thin section then GUS staining } } Question: Hi all } Has anyone done GUS (B-glucuronidase) staning following embedding and } sectioning with paraffin? I have done whole tissue staining with } good luck, but need to get into maturing seeds of grain crops to see } expression. I am thinking that Those are thick and hard to penetrate. } Thank you for your help. } Michelle } } Login Host: 129.123.46.133
Michelle, The best images I have seen in the literature of Gus stained sections are from material embedded in technovit. This is (I think) glycol methacrylate, which is friendly to water soluble things. It is also possible that PEG sections would work, but I have not seen images. Organic solvents tend to remove the GUS reaction product. It definitely won't work in butyl methyl methacrylate (we tried) and unlikely to work with epoxies. In these scenarios, the staining is done first and then everything is embeded and sectioned. I expect that the GUS enzyme would loose activity after fixation and embedding, even in paraffin. I don't know that for sure. And perhaps it could be tissue specific. For a tried and true method, I would look at Technovit. Ben Scheres lab have used this successfully as have many others. Good luck, Tobias
} --- } } Email: mjamison-at-caissonlabs.com } Name: Michelle Jamison } } Organization: plant labratory } } Title-Subject: [Filtered] thin section then GUS staining } } Question: Hi all } Has anyone done GUS (B-glucuronidase) staning following embedding and } sectioning with paraffin? I have done whole tissue staining with } good luck, but need to get into maturing seeds of grain crops to see } expression. I am thinking that Those are thick and hard to penetrate. } Thank you for your help. } Michelle } } Login Host: 129.123.46.133
For my part, I have two hats. I am a faculty researcher and a person who directs a service facility.
As a faculty member I am a bit pushy about things I know about. I know exactly what you are saying about people latching on to something they like and ignoring the rest. I push rather hard for a more neutral reading of the data. When we have done enough work to know what is going on, then we publish. I have been in situations where others disagree with me so much that I just talk myself off of the project. Not common, but it has happened. I consider these occasions personal failures.
As the director of a facility, I regularly am helping people with things about which I know nothing. I have a very different approach here. I will only comment on what I know, the imaging system and know artifacts there of. When I know the cell biology, I help with that also. Once I have explained what I see in the sample, I let the others do what they will. I am uncomfortable doing more that stating my reservations. I have been known to repeat experiments to do the controls that I thought a researcher should have done. If I can replicate the result of interest in a negative control, then I get more pushy about my thoughts.
Just my $.02 David
_____________________
David Elliott Ph.D. Assistant Professor - Department of Cell Biology and Anatomy Director, Research Microscopy Core Service University of Arizona College of Medicine PO Box 245044 Tucson, AZ 85724
Voice: 520-626-7870 Fax: 520-626-2097
On Jan 8, 2010, at 9:46 AM, TindallR-at-missouri.edu wrote:
} } } } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of } America } To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver } On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } The list has been a little slow lately, so here's a topic for } potential discussion: } } On occasion we look at things in our scopes that have no good basis } for reference---no previous publications, no other EM images to } compare with---you get the picture. My method has been to take } representative images of what is there, even if the images have a } wide variety of things in them that don't resemble each other or } what the sample supposedly "should" look like. } } It's that "should" that is the problem. It sometimes happens when } we send these images to the clients that they grab onto whatever } looks like what they want to see, pretty much ignore anything else, } then starting making assertions about the images that go waaaay } beyond what the image can support and want to plug all that into a } publication. (I've had people get all Eureka! about the } "champagning" artifact on a negatively-stained prep, for example.) } } } So the question is, if the EM operator has a reasonable suspicion, } but not a certainty, that an image is showing artifact or something } that is not really the part of the sample the researcher wants to } see, how should that be handled? Should we send the images along } with our caveats and risk having them having them published with } interpretations that go beyond the data and may just be dead wrong? } Or should we self-censor and not send these images? } } Remember, I'm not talking about things that we KNOW are artifact or } garbage. That's a clear call. I'm talking about imaging things } that may not have been seen before, and nobody really knows what } they look like (but they think they do), thereby making it difficult } to separate artifact from real data. What we do now is send the } images with our comments and hope that the client isn't so desperate } for a publication that they ignore our cautions. We are virtually } never listed as co-authors so that's not really an issue, but } still.....I like clean science. } } How do other members of the Collective handle these cases? } } Cheers and stay warm! } } Randy } } Randy Tindall } Senior EM Specialist } Electron Microscopy Core Facility---We Do Small Well! } W125 Veterinary Medicine } University of Missouri } Columbia, MO 65211 } Tel: (573) 882-8304 } Fax: (573) 884-2227 } Email: tindallr-at-missouri.edu } Web: http://www.emc.missouri.edu } On-line calendar: http://biotech.rnet.missouri.edu/cgi-bin/Calcium310.pl?Op=Splash&Amount=Week&NavType=Both&Type=TimePlan } Sons of Norway: http://www.sofn.com } } } } } ==============================Original } Headers============================== } 13, 30 -- From TindallR-at-missouri.edu Fri Jan 8 10:43:48 2010 } 13, 30 -- Received: from mxtip01-umsystem-out.um.umsystem.edu } (mxtip01-umsystem-out.um.umsystem.edu [209.106.229.49]) } 13, 30 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP } id o08Ghlvw029554 } 13, 30 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 10:43:47 } -0600 } 13, 30 -- X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true } 13, 30 -- X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ai0FACfvRkvRauUp/ } 2dsb2JhbACaMIILrSEBCYUfhV2CRoFpBA } 13, 30 -- Received: from unknown (HELO um-nsmtpout1.um.umsystem.edu) } ([209.106.229.41]) } 13, 30 -- by mxtip01-missouri-out.um.umsystem.edu with ESMTP; 08 } Jan 2010 10:43:47 -0600 } 13, 30 -- Received: from UM-THUB01.um.umsystem.edu } ([209.106.230.181]) by um-nsmtpout1.um.umsystem.edu with Microsoft } SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); } 13, 30 -- Fri, 8 Jan 2010 10:43:47 -0600 } 13, 30 -- Received: from um-email06.um.umsystem.edu ([169.254.1.71]) } by } 13, 30 -- UM-THUB01.um.umsystem.edu ([209.106.230.181]) with mapi; } Fri, 8 Jan 2010 } 13, 30 -- 10:43:46 -0600 } 13, 30 -- From: "Tindall, Randy D." {TindallR-at-missouri.edu} } 13, 30 -- To: "microscopy-at-microscopy.com" {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} } 13, 30 -- Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 10:43:45 -0600 } 13, 30 -- Subject: EM imaging: Self-censorship? } 13, 30 -- Thread-Topic: EM imaging: Self-censorship? } 13, 30 -- Thread-Index: AcqQgb56tpTajBGETxiqxqY+yQSBPQ== } 13, 30 -- Message-ID: {9422E68616A7C648A281C0B5CD22A4B8224C4659E9-at-UM-EMAIL06.um.umsystem.edu } } } 13, 30 -- Accept-Language: en-US } 13, 30 -- Content-Language: en-US } 13, 30 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: } 13, 30 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: } 13, 30 -- acceptlanguage: en-US } 13, 30 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" } 13, 30 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 } 13, 30 -- X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Jan 2010 16:43:47.0452 (UTC) } FILETIME=[BFAE1BC0:01CA9081] } 13, 30 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit } 13, 30 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by } ns.microscopy.com id o08Ghlvw029554 } ==============================End of - } Headers============================== }
==============================Original Headers============================== 13, 22 -- From Elliott-at-arizona.edu Fri Jan 8 11:08:05 2010 13, 22 -- Received: from mailgator.email.arizona.edu (gremlin.email.arizona.edu [128.196.133.171]) 13, 22 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o08H84Bo009088 13, 22 -- for {MICROSCOPY-at-ns.microscopy.com} ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 11:08:04 -0600 13, 22 -- Received: from mailgators_amavis (amavis7.email.arizona.edu [10.0.0.235]) 13, 22 -- by mailgator.email.arizona.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C930E547317C 13, 22 -- for {MICROSCOPY-at-ns.microscopy.com} ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 10:08:03 -0700 (MST) 13, 22 -- Received: from [150.135.145.126] (unknown [150.135.145.126]) 13, 22 -- by smtpgate.email.arizona.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A56E16BCB16 13, 22 -- for {MICROSCOPY-at-ns.microscopy.com} ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 10:08:02 -0700 (MST) 13, 22 -- Message-Id: {376C014A-87F4-4F50-A250-B273282AC9FB-at-arizona.edu} 13, 22 -- From: David Elliott {Elliott-at-arizona.edu} 13, 22 -- To: Microscopy ListServer {MICROSCOPY-at-ns.microscopy.com} 13, 22 -- In-Reply-To: {201001081646.o08GkMr9001270-at-ns.microscopy.com} 13, 22 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes 13, 22 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 13, 22 -- Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) 13, 22 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] EM imaging: Self-censorship? 13, 22 -- Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 10:08:02 -0700 13, 22 -- References: {201001081646.o08GkMr9001270-at-ns.microscopy.com} 13, 22 -- X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) 13, 22 -- X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at email.arizona.edu ==============================End of - Headers==============================
I am in the same situation as Dr. Elliott. I work as a faculty at the microbiology and cell science department as well as a director of an EM lab at the core facility.
Basically, I do not stick only to electron microscopy for deriving conclusions. I reevaluate what we have found from electron microscopy by means of light microscopy, cell fractionation, or mutant characterization.
For service projects, I give my clients my comments and ask what other evidence they have to support their claim. For service projects in which we do not participate as a coauthor, it is their responsibility if clients go against opinions from an expert like you. I keep records of discussion (usually by e-mail) in case they blame me.
Hope this helps.
Thanks.
Byung-Ho Kang, Ph.D. Assistant Professor, Microbiology and Cell Science Director, Electron Microscopy and Bioimaging Lab, Interdisciplinary Center for Biotechnology Research University of Florida Gainesville, FL 32611 Tel: 352-846-0952 Fax: 352-392-5922 http://microcell.ufl.edu/personnel/faculty/Kang.shtml
On Jan 8, 2010, at 12:14 PM, Elliott-at-arizona.edu wrote:
} } } } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of America } To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver } On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } Good question Randy } } For my part, I have two hats. I am a faculty researcher and a person } who directs a service facility. } } As a faculty member I am a bit pushy about things I know about. I } know exactly what you are saying about people latching on to something } they like and ignoring the rest. I push rather hard for a more } neutral reading of the data. When we have done enough work to know } what is going on, then we publish. I have been in situations where } others disagree with me so much that I just talk myself off of the } project. Not common, but it has happened. I consider these occasions } personal failures. } } As the director of a facility, I regularly am helping people with } things about which I know nothing. I have a very different approach } here. I will only comment on what I know, the imaging system and know } artifacts there of. When I know the cell biology, I help with that } also. Once I have explained what I see in the sample, I let the } others do what they will. I am uncomfortable doing more that stating } my reservations. I have been known to repeat experiments to do the } controls that I thought a researcher should have done. If I can } replicate the result of interest in a negative control, then I get } more pushy about my thoughts. } } Just my $.02 } David } } } _____________________ } } David Elliott Ph.D. } Assistant Professor - Department of Cell Biology and Anatomy } Director, Research Microscopy Core Service } University of Arizona College of Medicine } PO Box 245044 } Tucson, AZ 85724 } } Voice: 520-626-7870 } Fax: 520-626-2097 } } } On Jan 8, 2010, at 9:46 AM, TindallR-at-missouri.edu wrote: } } } } } } } } } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of } } America } } To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver } } On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html } } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } } } The list has been a little slow lately, so here's a topic for } } potential discussion: } } } } On occasion we look at things in our scopes that have no good basis } } for reference---no previous publications, no other EM images to } } compare with---you get the picture. My method has been to take } } representative images of what is there, even if the images have a } } wide variety of things in them that don't resemble each other or } } what the sample supposedly "should" look like. } } } } It's that "should" that is the problem. It sometimes happens when } } we send these images to the clients that they grab onto whatever } } looks like what they want to see, pretty much ignore anything else, } } then starting making assertions about the images that go waaaay } } beyond what the image can support and want to plug all that into a } } publication. (I've had people get all Eureka! about the } } "champagning" artifact on a negatively-stained prep, for example.) } } } } } } So the question is, if the EM operator has a reasonable suspicion, } } but not a certainty, that an image is showing artifact or something } } that is not really the part of the sample the researcher wants to } } see, how should that be handled? Should we send the images along } } with our caveats and risk having them having them published with } } interpretations that go beyond the data and may just be dead wrong? } } Or should we self-censor and not send these images? } } } } Remember, I'm not talking about things that we KNOW are artifact or } } garbage. That's a clear call. I'm talking about imaging things } } that may not have been seen before, and nobody really knows what } } they look like (but they think they do), thereby making it difficult } } to separate artifact from real data. What we do now is send the } } images with our comments and hope that the client isn't so desperate } } for a publication that they ignore our cautions. We are virtually } } never listed as co-authors so that's not really an issue, but } } still.....I like clean science. } } } } How do other members of the Collective handle these cases? } } } } Cheers and stay warm! } } } } Randy } } } } Randy Tindall } } Senior EM Specialist } } Electron Microscopy Core Facility---We Do Small Well! } } W125 Veterinary Medicine } } University of Missouri } } Columbia, MO 65211 } } Tel: (573) 882-8304 } } Fax: (573) 884-2227 } } Email: tindallr-at-missouri.edu } } Web: http://www.emc.missouri.edu } } On-line calendar: http://biotech.rnet.missouri.edu/cgi-bin/Calcium310.pl?Op=Splash&Amount=Week&NavType=Both&Type=TimePlan } } Sons of Norway: http://www.sofn.com } } } } } } } } } } ==============================Original } } Headers============================== } } 13, 30 -- From TindallR-at-missouri.edu Fri Jan 8 10:43:48 2010 } } 13, 30 -- Received: from mxtip01-umsystem-out.um.umsystem.edu } } (mxtip01-umsystem-out.um.umsystem.edu [209.106.229.49]) } } 13, 30 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP } } id o08Ghlvw029554 } } 13, 30 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 10:43:47 } } -0600 } } 13, 30 -- X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true } } 13, 30 -- X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ai0FACfvRkvRauUp/ } } 2dsb2JhbACaMIILrSEBCYUfhV2CRoFpBA } } 13, 30 -- Received: from unknown (HELO um-nsmtpout1.um.umsystem.edu) } } ([209.106.229.41]) } } 13, 30 -- by mxtip01-missouri-out.um.umsystem.edu with ESMTP; 08 } } Jan 2010 10:43:47 -0600 } } 13, 30 -- Received: from UM-THUB01.um.umsystem.edu } } ([209.106.230.181]) by um-nsmtpout1.um.umsystem.edu with Microsoft } } SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); } } 13, 30 -- Fri, 8 Jan 2010 10:43:47 -0600 } } 13, 30 -- Received: from um-email06.um.umsystem.edu ([169.254.1.71]) } } by } } 13, 30 -- UM-THUB01.um.umsystem.edu ([209.106.230.181]) with mapi; } } Fri, 8 Jan 2010 } } 13, 30 -- 10:43:46 -0600 } } 13, 30 -- From: "Tindall, Randy D." {TindallR-at-missouri.edu} } } 13, 30 -- To: "microscopy-at-microscopy.com" {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} } } 13, 30 -- Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 10:43:45 -0600 } } 13, 30 -- Subject: EM imaging: Self-censorship? } } 13, 30 -- Thread-Topic: EM imaging: Self-censorship? } } 13, 30 -- Thread-Index: AcqQgb56tpTajBGETxiqxqY+yQSBPQ== } } 13, 30 -- Message-ID: {9422E68616A7C648A281C0B5CD22A4B8224C4659E9-at-UM-EMAIL06.um.umsystem.edu } } } } } 13, 30 -- Accept-Language: en-US } } 13, 30 -- Content-Language: en-US } } 13, 30 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: } } 13, 30 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: } } 13, 30 -- acceptlanguage: en-US } } 13, 30 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" } } 13, 30 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 } } 13, 30 -- X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Jan 2010 16:43:47.0452 (UTC) } } FILETIME=[BFAE1BC0:01CA9081] } } 13, 30 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit } } 13, 30 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by } } ns.microscopy.com id o08Ghlvw029554 } } ==============================End of - } } Headers============================== } } } } } ==============================Original Headers============================== } 13, 22 -- From Elliott-at-arizona.edu Fri Jan 8 11:08:05 2010 } 13, 22 -- Received: from mailgator.email.arizona.edu (gremlin.email.arizona.edu [128.196.133.171]) } 13, 22 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o08H84Bo009088 } 13, 22 -- for {MICROSCOPY-at-ns.microscopy.com} ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 11:08:04 -0600 } 13, 22 -- Received: from mailgators_amavis (amavis7.email.arizona.edu [10.0.0.235]) } 13, 22 -- by mailgator.email.arizona.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C930E547317C } 13, 22 -- for {MICROSCOPY-at-ns.microscopy.com} ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 10:08:03 -0700 (MST) } 13, 22 -- Received: from [150.135.145.126] (unknown [150.135.145.126]) } 13, 22 -- by smtpgate.email.arizona.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A56E16BCB16 } 13, 22 -- for {MICROSCOPY-at-ns.microscopy.com} ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 10:08:02 -0700 (MST) } 13, 22 -- Message-Id: {376C014A-87F4-4F50-A250-B273282AC9FB-at-arizona.edu} } 13, 22 -- From: David Elliott {Elliott-at-arizona.edu} } 13, 22 -- To: Microscopy ListServer {MICROSCOPY-at-ns.microscopy.com} } 13, 22 -- In-Reply-To: {201001081646.o08GkMr9001270-at-ns.microscopy.com} } 13, 22 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes } 13, 22 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit } 13, 22 -- Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) } 13, 22 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] EM imaging: Self-censorship? } 13, 22 -- Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 10:08:02 -0700 } 13, 22 -- References: {201001081646.o08GkMr9001270-at-ns.microscopy.com} } 13, 22 -- X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) } 13, 22 -- X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at email.arizona.edu } ==============================End of - Headers============================== }
==============================Original Headers============================== 17, 25 -- From bkang-at-ufl.edu Fri Jan 8 12:01:07 2010 17, 25 -- Received: from smtp.ufl.edu (smtp04.osg.ufl.edu [128.227.74.71]) 17, 25 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o08I16Xc027783 17, 25 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 12:01:07 -0600 17, 25 -- Received: from [10.249.16.58] ([10.249.16.58]) 17, 25 -- (authenticated bits=0) 17, 25 -- by smtp.ufl.edu (8.14.0/8.14.0/3.0.0) with ESMTP id o08I15Nl002415 17, 25 -- (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) 17, 25 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 13:01:06 -0500 17, 25 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii 17, 25 -- Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) 17, 25 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] Re: EM imaging: Self-censorship? 17, 25 -- From: Byung-Ho Kang {bkang-at-ufl.edu} 17, 25 -- In-Reply-To: {201001081714.o08HEqrv022546-at-ns.microscopy.com} 17, 25 -- Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 13:01:05 -0500 17, 25 -- Message-Id: {F59AC0BF-42E4-4CC6-AE3D-872BC9473BB2-at-ufl.edu} 17, 25 -- References: {201001081714.o08HEqrv022546-at-ns.microscopy.com} 17, 25 -- To: Microscopy-at-microscopy.com 17, 25 -- X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) 17, 25 -- X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=1.12.8161:2.4.5,1.2.40,4.0.166 definitions=2010-01-08_12:2010-01-05,2010-01-08,2010-01-08 signatures=0 17, 25 -- X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx engine=5.0.0-0908210000 definitions=main-1001080199 17, 25 -- X-Spam-Level: * 17, 25 -- X-UFL-Spam-Level: * 17, 25 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 17, 25 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o08I16Xc027783 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
I think we always need to discuss potential artifacts with our users and suggest controls where these are feasible. This is particularly true for assisted projects, where users are coming to us both for our equipment and our expertise. Having done that, I am not interested in getting into a protracted battle if the user still wants to proceed with publication (and assuming I am not a coauthor).
Where we sometimes run into problems is when the contact is a student who may not have the expertise or inclination to convey these reservations to the advisor (who will be a coauthor and is usually footing the bill). In such cases I think it's prudent to include any comments and caveats in an e-mail copied to the advisor.
Marie
On Jan 8, 2010, at 11:50 AM, TindallR-at-missouri.edu wrote:
} } } } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of } America } To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver } On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } The list has been a little slow lately, so here's a topic for } potential discussion: } } On occasion we look at things in our scopes that have no good basis } for reference---no previous publications, no other EM images to } compare with---you get the picture. My method has been to take } representative images of what is there, even if the images have a } wide variety of things in them that don't resemble each other or } what the sample supposedly "should" look like. } } It's that "should" that is the problem. It sometimes happens when } we send these images to the clients that they grab onto whatever } looks like what they want to see, pretty much ignore anything else, } then starting making assertions about the images that go waaaay } beyond what the image can support and want to plug all that into a } publication. (I've had people get all Eureka! about the } "champagning" artifact on a negatively-stained prep, for example.) } } } So the question is, if the EM operator has a reasonable suspicion, } but not a certainty, that an image is showing artifact or something } that is not really the part of the sample the researcher wants to } see, how should that be handled? Should we send the images along } with our caveats and risk having them having them published with } interpretations that go beyond the data and may just be dead wrong? } Or should we self-censor and not send these images? } } Remember, I'm not talking about things that we KNOW are artifact or } garbage. That's a clear call. I'm talking about imaging things } that may not have been seen before, and nobody really knows what } they look like (but they think they do), thereby making it difficult } to separate artifact from real data. What we do now is send the } images with our comments and hope that the client isn't so desperate } for a publication that they ignore our cautions. We are virtually } never listed as co-authors so that's not really an issue, but } still.....I like clean science. } } How do other members of the Collective handle these cases? } } Cheers and stay warm! } } Randy } } Randy Tindall } Senior EM Specialist } Electron Microscopy Core Facility---We Do Small Well! } W125 Veterinary Medicine } University of Missouri } Columbia, MO 65211 } Tel: (573) 882-8304 } Fax: (573) 884-2227 } Email: tindallr-at-missouri.edu } Web: http://www.emc.missouri.edu } On-line calendar: http://biotech.rnet.missouri.edu/cgi-bin/Calcium310.pl?Op=Splash&Amount=Week&NavType=Both&Type=TimePlan } Sons of Norway: http://www.sofn.com } } } } } ==============================Original } Headers============================== } 13, 30 -- From TindallR-at-missouri.edu Fri Jan 8 10:43:48 2010 } 13, 30 -- Received: from mxtip01-umsystem-out.um.umsystem.edu } (mxtip01-umsystem-out.um.umsystem.edu [209.106.229.49]) } 13, 30 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP } id o08Ghlvw029554 } 13, 30 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 10:43:47 } -0600 } 13, 30 -- X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true } 13, 30 -- X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ai0FACfvRkvRauUp/ } 2dsb2JhbACaMIILrSEBCYUfhV2CRoFpBA } 13, 30 -- Received: from unknown (HELO um-nsmtpout1.um.umsystem.edu) } ([209.106.229.41]) } 13, 30 -- by mxtip01-missouri-out.um.umsystem.edu with ESMTP; 08 } Jan 2010 10:43:47 -0600 } 13, 30 -- Received: from UM-THUB01.um.umsystem.edu } ([209.106.230.181]) by um-nsmtpout1.um.umsystem.edu with Microsoft } SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); } 13, 30 -- Fri, 8 Jan 2010 10:43:47 -0600 } 13, 30 -- Received: from um-email06.um.umsystem.edu ([169.254.1.71]) } by } 13, 30 -- UM-THUB01.um.umsystem.edu ([209.106.230.181]) with mapi; } Fri, 8 Jan 2010 } 13, 30 -- 10:43:46 -0600 } 13, 30 -- From: "Tindall, Randy D." {TindallR-at-missouri.edu} } 13, 30 -- To: "microscopy-at-microscopy.com" {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} } 13, 30 -- Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 10:43:45 -0600 } 13, 30 -- Subject: EM imaging: Self-censorship? } 13, 30 -- Thread-Topic: EM imaging: Self-censorship? } 13, 30 -- Thread-Index: AcqQgb56tpTajBGETxiqxqY+yQSBPQ== } 13, 30 -- Message-ID: {9422E68616A7C648A281C0B5CD22A4B8224C4659E9-at-UM-EMAIL06.um.umsystem.edu } } } 13, 30 -- Accept-Language: en-US } 13, 30 -- Content-Language: en-US } 13, 30 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: } 13, 30 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: } 13, 30 -- acceptlanguage: en-US } 13, 30 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" } 13, 30 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 } 13, 30 -- X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Jan 2010 16:43:47.0452 (UTC) } FILETIME=[BFAE1BC0:01CA9081] } 13, 30 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit } 13, 30 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by } ns.microscopy.com id o08Ghlvw029554 } ==============================End of - } Headers==============================
Dr. Marie E. Cantino Associate Professor of Physiology and Neurobiology Director, Electron Microscopy Laboratory University of Connecticut, Unit 3242 Phone: 860-486-3588 Fax: 860-486-6369
==============================Original Headers============================== 7, 21 -- From marie.cantino-at-uconn.edu Fri Jan 8 12:04:45 2010 7, 21 -- Received: from mail2.uits.uconn.edu (mail2.uits.uconn.edu [137.99.25.204]) 7, 21 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o08I4ilf000639 7, 21 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 12:04:45 -0600 7, 21 -- Received: from d47h9.public.uconn.edu (d47h9.public.uconn.edu [137.99.47.9]) 7, 21 -- by mail2.uits.uconn.edu (8.13.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id o08I4g6t029335 7, 21 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 13:04:42 -0500 7, 21 -- Message-Id: {6101D462-04FB-4B9A-9823-446641188F12-at-uconn.edu} 7, 21 -- From: Marie Cantino {marie.cantino-at-uconn.edu} 7, 21 -- To: Microscopy-at-microscopy.com 7, 21 -- In-Reply-To: {201001081650.o08GonkJ013858-at-ns.microscopy.com} 7, 21 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes 7, 21 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 7, 21 -- Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) 7, 21 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] EM imaging: Self-censorship? 7, 21 -- Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 13:04:42 -0500 7, 21 -- References: {201001081650.o08GonkJ013858-at-ns.microscopy.com} 7, 21 -- X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) 7, 21 -- X-UConn-MailScanner-Information: Contact UConn Help Desk 860-486-4357 for more information. 7, 21 -- X-UConn-MailScanner: Found to be clean 7, 21 -- X-UConn-MailScanner-SpamCheck: ==============================End of - Headers==============================
First, the clients are going to over-interpret anyway, no matter how well known or unknown the samples are, no matter what you say. Sometimes one "gets it", but ... And "clean science"? What's that? Especially in biology. It's all a mess. Remember the main corollary to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle: in any experiment, regardless of the results, you can never know what really happened. This goes for imaging things in the microscope, too. E.g., the size of mammalian red blood cells depends on how they were prepared and what microscopy was used to image them (the literature search is left as an exercise for the reader). So how big is an RBC? It depends. Before descending completely into gloom and despair, though, remember we're *always* making judgements about how things should (or do) look. So, if the specimens are new, we look more and use different methods to look at them. If they're still biconcave discs in light microscopy blood smears, DIC/phase, AFM, SEM, etc., RBCs probably really are biconcave discs. The problem isn't so much "how to interpet this new thing?" as "how to interpet this new thing that I've only looked at one way?"
So, I'd send the images with the best interpetation and all the caveats, foremost of which is "this needs more study and I suggest these different ways of preparing and imaging." With the default opinion that the whatzit is an artifact. ("Null hypothesis" if that reads better.)
But I definitely would not self-censor. First, it's not really your (our) data, it's the client's, and second, they may have literature that refers to the whatzit or know someone you don't that has seen the thing.
If the client is so desperate for publications that they ignore cautions and caveats, then they're going to publish garbage even if you only give them good, clean images. Just make *sure* you're not a co-author, and maybe request that you're not in the acknowledgements.
Good luck. Keep the vacuum inside the column.
Phil
} The list has been a little slow lately, so here's a topic for } potential discussion: } } On occasion we look at things in our scopes that have no good basis } for reference---no previous publications, no other EM images to } compare with---you get the picture. My method has been to take } representative images of what is there, even if the images have a } wide variety of things in them that don't resemble each other or } what the sample supposedly "should" look like. } } It's that "should" that is the problem. It sometimes happens when } we send these images to the clients that they grab onto whatever } looks like what they want to see, pretty much ignore anything else, } then starting making assertions about the images that go waaaay } beyond what the image can support and want to plug all that into a } publication. (I've had people get all Eureka! about the } "champagning" artifact on a negatively-stained prep, for example.) } } } So the question is, if the EM operator has a reasonable suspicion, } but not a certainty, that an image is showing artifact or something } that is not really the part of the sample the researcher wants to } see, how should that be handled? Should we send the images along } with our caveats and risk having them having them published with } interpretations that go beyond the data and may just be dead wrong? } Or should we self-censor and not send these images? } } Remember, I'm not talking about things that we KNOW are artifact or } garbage. That's a clear call. I'm talking about imaging things } that may not have been seen before, and nobody really knows what } they look like (but they think they do), thereby making it difficult } to separate artifact from real data. What we do now is send the } images with our comments and hope that the client isn't so desperate } for a publication that they ignore our cautions. We are virtually } never listed as co-authors so that's not really an issue, but } still.....I like clean science. } } How do other members of the Collective handle these cases? } } Cheers and stay warm! } } Randy } } Randy Tindall } Senior EM Specialist } Electron Microscopy Core Facility---We Do Small Well! } W125 Veterinary Medicine } University of Missouri } Columbia, MO 65211 } Tel: (573) 882-8304 } Fax: (573) 884-2227 } Email: tindallr-at-missouri.edu } Web: http://www.emc.missouri.edu } On-line calendar: } http://biotech.rnet.missouri.edu/cgi-bin/Calcium310.pl?Op=Splash&Amount=Week&NavType=Both&Type=TimePlan } Sons of Norway: http://www.sofn.com } -- Philip Oshel Microscopy Facility Supervisor Biology Department 024C Brooks Hall Central Michigan University Mt. Pleasant, MI 48859 (989) 774-3576
==============================Original Headers============================== 8, 25 -- From oshel1pe-at-cmich.edu Fri Jan 8 12:16:07 2010 8, 25 -- Received: from ob4.cmich.edu (ob4.cmich.edu [141.209.20.25]) 8, 25 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o08IG7UR024725 8, 25 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 12:16:07 -0600 8, 25 -- Received: from egatea.central.cmich.local ([141.209.15.74]) 8, 25 -- by ob4.cmich.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id o08IFgG1017504 8, 25 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 13:16:03 -0500 8, 25 -- Received: from [141.209.160.249] ([141.209.160.249]) by egatea.central.cmich.local with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); 8, 25 -- Fri, 8 Jan 2010 13:15:57 -0500 8, 25 -- Mime-Version: 1.0 8, 25 -- Message-Id: {f06240807c76d21e1bf9c-at-[141.209.160.249]} 8, 25 -- In-Reply-To: {201001081647.o08GlXBO003587-at-ns.microscopy.com} 8, 25 -- References: {201001081647.o08GlXBO003587-at-ns.microscopy.com} 8, 25 -- Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 13:15:55 -0500 8, 25 -- To: Microscopy-at-microscopy.com 8, 25 -- From: Philip Oshel {oshel1pe-at-cmich.edu} 8, 25 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] EM imaging: Self-censorship? 8, 25 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" 8, 25 -- X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Jan 2010 18:15:58.0001 (UTC) FILETIME=[A024EA10:01CA908E] 8, 25 -- X-Bayes-Prob: 0.0001 (Score -0.5, tokens from: -at--at-RPTN, default) 8, 25 -- X-Spam-Score: -3.70 () [Hold at 6.00] L_EXCH_MF,L_USD,RDNS_NONE,_L_SUPPORT,Bayes(0.0001,-0.5) 8, 25 -- X-CanIt-Geo: ip=141.209.15.74; country=US; region=MI; city=Mount Pleasant; postalcode=48859; latitude=43.5647; longitude=-84.8473; metrocode=513; areacode=989; http://maps.google.com/maps?q=43.5647,-84.8473&z=6 8, 25 -- X-CanItPRO-Stream: default 8, 25 -- X-Canit-Stats-ID: 25479593 - 225717f29751 - 20100108 8, 25 -- X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) on 141.209.20.25 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
One thing I've started to do is make notes directly on certain images - the ones that I know will get someone all excited over nothing (e.g., champagning in negative stains, a recent cell culture I was given that had massive Mycoplasma infection, etc.). I provide the original digital images, then a copy of the suspect image with a text layer pointing to the "problem", stating what it is & why it isn't Nobel prize-worthy. Somehow seeing that info right on the image gets the message across to some people when a plain old text document accompanying the data disc doesn't make a dent.
Great discussion topic, BTW.
Tamara
On Fri, 8 Jan 2010 10:44:58 -0600 TindallR-at-missouri.edu wrote: } } } } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy } Society of America } To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- } http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver } On-Line Help } http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } The list has been a little slow lately, so here's a } topic for potential discussion: } } On occasion we look at things in our scopes that have no } good basis for reference---no previous publications, no } other EM images to compare with---you get the picture. } My method has been to take representative images of what } is there, even if the images have a wide variety of } things in them that don't resemble each other or what the } sample supposedly "should" look like. } } It's that "should" that is the problem. It sometimes } happens when we send these images to the clients that } they grab onto whatever looks like what they want to see, } pretty much ignore anything else, then starting making } assertions about the images that go waaaay beyond what } the image can support and want to plug all that into a } publication. (I've had people get all Eureka! about the } "champagning" artifact on a negatively-stained prep, for } example.) } } } So the question is, if the EM operator has a reasonable } suspicion, but not a certainty, that an image is showing } artifact or something that is not really the part of the } sample the researcher wants to see, how should that be } handled? Should we send the images along with our } caveats and risk having them having them published with } interpretations that go beyond the data and may just be } dead wrong? Or should we self-censor and not send these } images? } } Remember, I'm not talking about things that we KNOW are } artifact or garbage. That's a clear call. I'm talking } about imaging things that may not have been seen before, } and nobody really knows what they look like (but they } think they do), thereby making it difficult to separate } artifact from real data. What we do now is send the } images with our comments and hope that the client isn't } so desperate for a publication that they ignore our } cautions. We are virtually never listed as co-authors so } that's not really an issue, but still.....I like clean } science. } } How do other members of the Collective handle these } cases? } } Cheers and stay warm! } } Randy } } Randy Tindall } Senior EM Specialist } Electron Microscopy Core Facility---We Do Small Well! } W125 Veterinary Medicine } University of Missouri } Columbia, MO 65211 } Tel: (573) 882-8304 } Fax: (573) 884-2227 } Email: tindallr-at-missouri.edu } Web: http://www.emc.missouri.edu } On-line calendar: } http://biotech.rnet.missouri.edu/cgi-bin/Calcium310.pl?Op=Splash&Amount=Week&NavType=Both&Type=TimePlan } Sons of Norway: http://www.sofn.com } } } } } ==============================Original } Headers============================== } 13, 30 -- From TindallR-at-missouri.edu Fri Jan 8 10:43:48 } 2010 } 13, 30 -- Received: from } mxtip01-umsystem-out.um.umsystem.edu } (mxtip01-umsystem-out.um.umsystem.edu [209.106.229.49]) } 13, 30 -- by ns.microscopy.com } (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o08Ghlvw029554 } 13, 30 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Fri, 8 Jan } 2010 10:43:47 -0600 } 13, 30 -- X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true } 13, 30 -- X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: } Ai0FACfvRkvRauUp/2dsb2JhbACaMIILrSEBCYUfhV2CRoFpBA } 13, 30 -- Received: from unknown (HELO } um-nsmtpout1.um.umsystem.edu) ([209.106.229.41]) } 13, 30 -- by mxtip01-missouri-out.um.umsystem.edu with } ESMTP; 08 Jan 2010 10:43:47 -0600 } 13, 30 -- Received: from UM-THUB01.um.umsystem.edu } ([209.106.230.181]) by um-nsmtpout1.um.umsystem.edu with } Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); } 13, 30 -- Fri, 8 Jan 2010 10:43:47 -0600 } 13, 30 -- Received: from um-email06.um.umsystem.edu } ([169.254.1.71]) by } 13, 30 -- UM-THUB01.um.umsystem.edu ([209.106.230.181]) } with mapi; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 } 13, 30 -- 10:43:46 -0600 } 13, 30 -- From: "Tindall, Randy D." } {TindallR-at-missouri.edu} } 13, 30 -- To: "microscopy-at-microscopy.com" } {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} } 13, 30 -- Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 10:43:45 -0600 } 13, 30 -- Subject: EM imaging: Self-censorship? } 13, 30 -- Thread-Topic: EM imaging: Self-censorship? } 13, 30 -- Thread-Index: AcqQgb56tpTajBGETxiqxqY+yQSBPQ== } 13, 30 -- Message-ID: } {9422E68616A7C648A281C0B5CD22A4B8224C4659E9-at-UM-EMAIL06.um.umsystem.edu} } 13, 30 -- Accept-Language: en-US } 13, 30 -- Content-Language: en-US } 13, 30 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: } 13, 30 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: } 13, 30 -- acceptlanguage: en-US } 13, 30 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" } 13, 30 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 } 13, 30 -- X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Jan 2010 } 16:43:47.0452 (UTC) FILETIME=[BFAE1BC0:01CA9081] } 13, 30 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit } 13, 30 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to } 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o08Ghlvw029554 } ==============================End of - } Headers==============================
So what is our responsibility as scientists when someone (in our opinion) crosses the line from an oddball interpretation of the data to an erroneous and/or fraudulent interpretation? A previous facility manager here confided in me that they no longer did service work for a particular faculty member because of the way the faculty member had (in the manager's opinion) twisted the data. Unfortunately the manager (who was not a faculty member) did not feel as if there was an option for calling this behavior into question. Whistleblowing can and/has historically left the whistleblower scarred or unemployed. FWIW, our campus now has an anonymous phone number for reporting financial and/or research fraud, but I have my doubts about how well known it is on campus.
I've written guidelines about digital image manipulation ethics, but as others have pointed out that it's easy to be outside of your area of technical expertise when doing service work. Supposedly peer-review of publications should weed out wacky interpretations, but we all know of odd research findings that have been superseded by better research, or have seen the Journals have to retract a paper because questions were raised about the data (and further review by an embarrassed senior author who was not able to locate the original data). A recent paper I read studied citations of the articles that were involved in Office of Research Integrity findings. These were cases where falsification/fabrication/plagiarism in the articles was established. Of the articles written by others citing these "bad" papers, only 5% of the citations referenced the fraudulent articles in a negative light, the rest were considered positive. The blame goes a lot of places, but don't some of us have a responsibility to try to reduce the amount of "chaff" in the research literature? I'm not expecting a definitive answer, just tossing this out there as a rhetorical question.
I once spent a good deal of time explaining to a student that the colocalization they were seeing in confocal images (red image staining + green image staining = yellow pixels in the overlay image, for you TEM folks) was an artifact. The student, who was not a microscopist, could never really explain the technical aspects of the problem to the PI and ultimately I had to write a short essay (with illustrations) to explain the physics to the PI. The lab really wanted the two items they were immuno-staining to colocalize, but the confocal (configured correctly) didn't show that.
Thanks for your good ideas. Doug
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Douglas W. Cromey, M.S. - Assistant Scientific Investigator Dept. of Cell Biology & Anatomy, University of Arizona 1501 N. Campbell Ave, Tucson, AZ 85724-5044 USA
http://swehsc.pharmacy.arizona.edu/exppath/ Home of: "Microscopy and Imaging Resources on the WWW"
-----Original Message----- X-from: marie.cantino-at-uconn.edu [mailto:marie.cantino-at-uconn.edu] Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 11:05 AM To: dcromey-at-email.arizona.edu
I think we always need to discuss potential artifacts with our users and suggest controls where these are feasible. This is particularly true for assisted projects, where users are coming to us both for our equipment and our expertise. Having done that, I am not interested in getting into a protracted battle if the user still wants to proceed with publication (and assuming I am not a coauthor).
Where we sometimes run into problems is when the contact is a student who may not have the expertise or inclination to convey these reservations to the advisor (who will be a coauthor and is usually footing the bill). In such cases I think it's prudent to include any comments and caveats in an e-mail copied to the advisor.
Marie
On Jan 8, 2010, at 11:50 AM, TindallR-at-missouri.edu wrote:
} } } } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of } America } To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver } On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } The list has been a little slow lately, so here's a topic for } potential discussion: } } On occasion we look at things in our scopes that have no good basis } for reference---no previous publications, no other EM images to } compare with---you get the picture. My method has been to take } representative images of what is there, even if the images have a } wide variety of things in them that don't resemble each other or } what the sample supposedly "should" look like. } } It's that "should" that is the problem. It sometimes happens when } we send these images to the clients that they grab onto whatever } looks like what they want to see, pretty much ignore anything else, } then starting making assertions about the images that go waaaay } beyond what the image can support and want to plug all that into a } publication. (I've had people get all Eureka! about the } "champagning" artifact on a negatively-stained prep, for example.) } } } So the question is, if the EM operator has a reasonable suspicion, } but not a certainty, that an image is showing artifact or something } that is not really the part of the sample the researcher wants to } see, how should that be handled? Should we send the images along } with our caveats and risk having them having them published with } interpretations that go beyond the data and may just be dead wrong? } Or should we self-censor and not send these images? } } Remember, I'm not talking about things that we KNOW are artifact or } garbage. That's a clear call. I'm talking about imaging things } that may not have been seen before, and nobody really knows what } they look like (but they think they do), thereby making it difficult } to separate artifact from real data. What we do now is send the } images with our comments and hope that the client isn't so desperate } for a publication that they ignore our cautions. We are virtually } never listed as co-authors so that's not really an issue, but } still.....I like clean science. } } How do other members of the Collective handle these cases? } } Cheers and stay warm! } } Randy } } Randy Tindall } Senior EM Specialist } Electron Microscopy Core Facility---We Do Small Well! } W125 Veterinary Medicine } University of Missouri } Columbia, MO 65211 } Tel: (573) 882-8304 } Fax: (573) 884-2227 } Email: tindallr-at-missouri.edu } Web: http://www.emc.missouri.edu } On-line calendar: http://biotech.rnet.missouri.edu/cgi-bin/Calcium310.pl?Op=Splash&Amount=Week &NavType=Both&Type=TimePlan } Sons of Norway: http://www.sofn.com } } } } } ==============================Original } Headers============================== } 13, 30 -- From TindallR-at-missouri.edu Fri Jan 8 10:43:48 2010 } 13, 30 -- Received: from mxtip01-umsystem-out.um.umsystem.edu } (mxtip01-umsystem-out.um.umsystem.edu [209.106.229.49]) } 13, 30 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP } id o08Ghlvw029554 } 13, 30 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 10:43:47 } -0600 } 13, 30 -- X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true } 13, 30 -- X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ai0FACfvRkvRauUp/ } 2dsb2JhbACaMIILrSEBCYUfhV2CRoFpBA } 13, 30 -- Received: from unknown (HELO um-nsmtpout1.um.umsystem.edu) } ([209.106.229.41]) } 13, 30 -- by mxtip01-missouri-out.um.umsystem.edu with ESMTP; 08 } Jan 2010 10:43:47 -0600 } 13, 30 -- Received: from UM-THUB01.um.umsystem.edu } ([209.106.230.181]) by um-nsmtpout1.um.umsystem.edu with Microsoft } SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); } 13, 30 -- Fri, 8 Jan 2010 10:43:47 -0600 } 13, 30 -- Received: from um-email06.um.umsystem.edu ([169.254.1.71]) } by } 13, 30 -- UM-THUB01.um.umsystem.edu ([209.106.230.181]) with mapi; } Fri, 8 Jan 2010 } 13, 30 -- 10:43:46 -0600 } 13, 30 -- From: "Tindall, Randy D." {TindallR-at-missouri.edu} } 13, 30 -- To: "microscopy-at-microscopy.com" {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} } 13, 30 -- Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 10:43:45 -0600 } 13, 30 -- Subject: EM imaging: Self-censorship? } 13, 30 -- Thread-Topic: EM imaging: Self-censorship? } 13, 30 -- Thread-Index: AcqQgb56tpTajBGETxiqxqY+yQSBPQ== } 13, 30 -- Message-ID: {9422E68616A7C648A281C0B5CD22A4B8224C4659E9-at-UM-EMAIL06.um.umsystem.edu } } } 13, 30 -- Accept-Language: en-US } 13, 30 -- Content-Language: en-US } 13, 30 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: } 13, 30 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: } 13, 30 -- acceptlanguage: en-US } 13, 30 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" } 13, 30 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 } 13, 30 -- X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Jan 2010 16:43:47.0452 (UTC) } FILETIME=[BFAE1BC0:01CA9081] } 13, 30 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit } 13, 30 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by } ns.microscopy.com id o08Ghlvw029554 } ==============================End of - } Headers==============================
Dr. Marie E. Cantino Associate Professor of Physiology and Neurobiology Director, Electron Microscopy Laboratory University of Connecticut, Unit 3242 Phone: 860-486-3588 Fax: 860-486-6369
==============================Original Headers============================== 7, 21 -- From marie.cantino-at-uconn.edu Fri Jan 8 12:04:45 2010 7, 21 -- Received: from mail2.uits.uconn.edu (mail2.uits.uconn.edu [137.99.25.204]) 7, 21 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o08I4ilf000639 7, 21 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 12:04:45 -0600 7, 21 -- Received: from d47h9.public.uconn.edu (d47h9.public.uconn.edu [137.99.47.9]) 7, 21 -- by mail2.uits.uconn.edu (8.13.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id o08I4g6t029335 7, 21 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 13:04:42 -0500 7, 21 -- Message-Id: {6101D462-04FB-4B9A-9823-446641188F12-at-uconn.edu} 7, 21 -- From: Marie Cantino {marie.cantino-at-uconn.edu} 7, 21 -- To: Microscopy-at-microscopy.com 7, 21 -- In-Reply-To: {201001081650.o08GonkJ013858-at-ns.microscopy.com} 7, 21 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes 7, 21 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 7, 21 -- Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) 7, 21 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] EM imaging: Self-censorship? 7, 21 -- Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 13:04:42 -0500 7, 21 -- References: {201001081650.o08GonkJ013858-at-ns.microscopy.com} 7, 21 -- X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) 7, 21 -- X-UConn-MailScanner-Information: Contact UConn Help Desk 860-486-4357 for more information. 7, 21 -- X-UConn-MailScanner: Found to be clean 7, 21 -- X-UConn-MailScanner-SpamCheck: ==============================End of - Headers==============================
==============================Original Headers============================== 21, 27 -- From dcromey-at-email.arizona.edu Fri Jan 8 12:39:56 2010 21, 27 -- Received: from mailgator.email.arizona.edu (gremlin.email.arizona.edu [128.196.133.171]) 21, 27 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o08IdtTE021972 21, 27 -- for {Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com} ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 12:39:55 -0600 21, 27 -- Received: from mailgators_amavis (amavis5.email.arizona.edu [10.0.0.208]) 21, 27 -- by mailgator.email.arizona.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54134546CE41 21, 27 -- for {Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com} ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 11:39:55 -0700 (MST) 21, 27 -- Received: from RASTER (hepatic1.cba.arizona.edu [128.196.157.6]) 21, 27 -- by smtpgate.email.arizona.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 823FA16BCA0B 21, 27 -- for {Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com} ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 11:39:50 -0700 (MST) 21, 27 -- Reply-To: {cromey-at-arizona.edu} 21, 27 -- From: "Doug Cromey" {dcromey-at-email.arizona.edu} 21, 27 -- To: "Microscopy listserv" {Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com} 21, 27 -- References: {201001081805.o08I5Ec3001981-at-ns.microscopy.com} 21, 27 -- In-Reply-To: {201001081805.o08I5Ec3001981-at-ns.microscopy.com} 21, 27 -- Subject: RE: [Microscopy] Re: EM imaging: Self-censorship? 21, 27 -- Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 11:39:49 -0700 21, 27 -- Organization: University of Arizona 21, 27 -- Message-ID: {000c01ca9091$f78e3470$e6aa9d50$-at-arizona.edu} 21, 27 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 21, 27 -- Content-Type: text/plain; 21, 27 -- charset="us-ascii" 21, 27 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 21, 27 -- X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 21, 27 -- Thread-Index: AcqQjSITSKFY8xAcTq21vAq9NMLa4QAABT/g 21, 27 -- Content-Language: en-us 21, 27 -- X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at email.arizona.edu ==============================End of - Headers==============================
I am opposed to self-censorship which is saying (IMO) "I know more about the project than the investigator therefore" ....... By all means do include caveats about sampling error, artifacts, etc.but if someone chooses to "over interpret" that is there problem.
Geoff
TindallR-at-missouri.edu wrote: } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of America } To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver } On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } The list has been a little slow lately, so here's a topic for potential discussion: } } On occasion we look at things in our scopes that have no good basis for reference---no previous publications, no other EM images to compare with---you get the picture. My method has been to take representative images of what is there, even if the images have a wide variety of things in them that don't resemble each other or what the sample supposedly "should" look like. } } It's that "should" that is the problem. It sometimes happens when we send these images to the clients that they grab onto whatever looks like what they want to see, pretty much ignore anything else, then starting making assertions about the images that go waaaay beyond what the image can support and want to plug all that into a publication. (I've had people get all Eureka! about the "champagning" artifact on a negatively-stained prep, for example.) } } } So the question is, if the EM operator has a reasonable suspicion, but not a certainty, that an image is showing artifact or something that is not really the part of the sample the researcher wants to see, how should that be handled? Should we send the images along with our caveats and risk having them having them published with interpretations that go beyond the data and may just be dead wrong? Or should we self-censor and not send these images? } } Remember, I'm not talking about things that we KNOW are artifact or garbage. That's a clear call. I'm talking about imaging things that may not have been seen before, and nobody really knows what they look like (but they think they do), thereby making it difficult to separate artifact from real data. What we do now is send the images with our comments and hope that the client isn't so desperate for a publication that they ignore our cautions. We are virtually never listed as co-authors so that's not really an issue, but still.....I like clean science. } } How do other members of the Collective handle these cases? } } Cheers and stay warm! } } Randy } } Randy Tindall } Senior EM Specialist } Electron Microscopy Core Facility---We Do Small Well! } W125 Veterinary Medicine } University of Missouri } Columbia, MO 65211 } Tel: (573) 882-8304 } Fax: (573) 884-2227 } Email: tindallr-at-missouri.edu } Web: http://www.emc.missouri.edu } On-line calendar: http://biotech.rnet.missouri.edu/cgi-bin/Calcium310.pl?Op=Splash&Amount=Week&NavType=Both&Type=TimePlan } Sons of Norway: http://www.sofn.com } } } } } ==============================Original Headers============================== } 13, 30 -- From TindallR-at-missouri.edu Fri Jan 8 10:43:48 2010 } 13, 30 -- Received: from mxtip01-umsystem-out.um.umsystem.edu (mxtip01-umsystem-out.um.umsystem.edu [209.106.229.49]) } 13, 30 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o08Ghlvw029554 } 13, 30 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 10:43:47 -0600 } 13, 30 -- X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true } 13, 30 -- X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ai0FACfvRkvRauUp/2dsb2JhbACaMIILrSEBCYUfhV2CRoFpBA } 13, 30 -- Received: from unknown (HELO um-nsmtpout1.um.umsystem.edu) ([209.106.229.41]) } 13, 30 -- by mxtip01-missouri-out.um.umsystem.edu with ESMTP; 08 Jan 2010 10:43:47 -0600 } 13, 30 -- Received: from UM-THUB01.um.umsystem.edu ([209.106.230.181]) by um-nsmtpout1.um.umsystem.edu with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); } 13, 30 -- Fri, 8 Jan 2010 10:43:47 -0600 } 13, 30 -- Received: from um-email06.um.umsystem.edu ([169.254.1.71]) by } 13, 30 -- UM-THUB01.um.umsystem.edu ([209.106.230.181]) with mapi; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 } 13, 30 -- 10:43:46 -0600 } 13, 30 -- From: "Tindall, Randy D." {TindallR-at-missouri.edu} } 13, 30 -- To: "microscopy-at-microscopy.com" {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} } 13, 30 -- Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 10:43:45 -0600 } 13, 30 -- Subject: EM imaging: Self-censorship? } 13, 30 -- Thread-Topic: EM imaging: Self-censorship? } 13, 30 -- Thread-Index: AcqQgb56tpTajBGETxiqxqY+yQSBPQ== } 13, 30 -- Message-ID: {9422E68616A7C648A281C0B5CD22A4B8224C4659E9-at-UM-EMAIL06.um.umsystem.edu} } 13, 30 -- Accept-Language: en-US } 13, 30 -- Content-Language: en-US } 13, 30 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: } 13, 30 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: } 13, 30 -- acceptlanguage: en-US } 13, 30 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" } 13, 30 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 } 13, 30 -- X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Jan 2010 16:43:47.0452 (UTC) FILETIME=[BFAE1BC0:01CA9081] } 13, 30 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit } 13, 30 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o08Ghlvw029554 } ==============================End of - Headers============================== } } }
-- -- ********************************************** Geoff McAuliffe, Ph.D. Neuroscience and Cell Biology Robert Wood Johnson Medical School 675 Hoes Lane, Piscataway, NJ 08854 voice: (732)-235-4583 mcauliff-at-umdnj.edu **********************************************
==============================Original Headers============================== 8, 28 -- From mcauliff-at-umdnj.edu Fri Jan 8 12:45:30 2010 8, 28 -- Received: from zix01.umdnj.edu (zix01.UMDNJ.EDU [130.219.34.124]) 8, 28 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with SMTP id o08IjTTV032323 8, 28 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 12:45:29 -0600 8, 28 -- Received: from zix01.umdnj.edu (ZixVPM [127.0.0.1]) 8, 28 -- by Outbound.umdnj.edu (Proprietary) with ESMTP id 22C2E1A503CB 8, 28 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 13:45:29 -0500 (EST) 8, 28 -- Received: from umdnj.edu (unknown [10.32.15.102]) 8, 28 -- by zix01.umdnj.edu (Proprietary) with ESMTP id 940111A503A8 8, 28 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 13:45:28 -0500 (EST) 8, 28 -- Received: from ([10.32.15.171]) 8, 28 -- by imail2.umdnj.edu with ESMTP id CVSJWG1.34317856; 8, 28 -- Fri, 08 Jan 2010 13:45:26 -0500 8, 28 -- MIME-version: 1.0 8, 28 -- Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT 8, 28 -- Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed 8, 28 -- Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([10.32.15.102]) 8, 28 -- by umduwc02.umdnj.edu (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 6.3-6.03 (built 8, 28 -- Mar 14 2008; 32bit)) with ESMTP id {0KVX005TWYRQ2C90-at-umduwc02.umdnj.edu} for 8, 28 -- microscopy-at-microscopy.com; Fri, 08 Jan 2010 13:45:26 -0500 (EST) 8, 28 -- Message-id: {4B477DCA.9060802-at-umdnj.edu} 8, 28 -- Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 13:47:38 -0500 8, 28 -- From: Geoff McAuliffe {mcauliff-at-umdnj.edu} 8, 28 -- User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) 8, 28 -- To: TindallR-at-missouri.edu, microscopy-at-microscopy.com 8, 28 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] EM imaging: Self-censorship? 8, 28 -- References: {201001081644.o08GimYW030964-at-ns.microscopy.com} 8, 28 -- In-reply-to: {201001081644.o08GimYW030964-at-ns.microscopy.com} ==============================End of - Headers==============================
It isn't just biology. I examine broken metal rectangles, (called CVNs) first to find the failure origin and then the cause of the failure. Like many others, I do this for clients and I lose control of the image very quickly.
In those cases where there appears to be an initiation point/origin but no cause, I routine include that information in the file title. The notation looks like "sample12344-56 suspected-origin-xxxmag" as compared to "sample12344-56-origin-xxxmag". Many times material which could cause a failure is observed near, but not at the suspected origin. Those are labeled "sample12344-56-slag near suspected origin-xxxmag".
So what am I trying to say? I suspect the solution to releasing images, which are owned by the client but which you have a stake in (you took it after all) is to add limiting verbiage to the filename. I suspect something like "-poss-artifact-" "--unexpt structure-" added to the filename will at least have the client calling for additional information.
As it was mentioned, if the client makes outrageous claims, well you have the images with the concern expressed in the filename...
Thank Heaven, I'm not limited to 12 characters in a file name.........
Frank
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==============================Original Headers============================== 8, 22 -- From frank_karl-at-lincolnelectric.com Fri Jan 8 13:40:16 2010 8, 22 -- Received: from lincolnelectric.com (smtp2.lincolnelectric.com [64.109.211.115]) 8, 22 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o08JeFSw020272 8, 22 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 13:40:16 -0600 8, 22 -- In-Reply-To: {201001081652.o08GqHxF017969-at-ns.microscopy.com} 8, 22 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] EM imaging: Self-censorship? 8, 22 -- To: TindallR-at-missouri.edu, Microscopy-at-microscopy.com 8, 22 -- X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.5 November 30, 2005 8, 22 -- Message-ID: {OF1230B59C.07103FC6-ON852576A5.00679188-852576A5.006BEC89-at-lincolnelectric.com} 8, 22 -- Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 14:40:17 -0500 8, 22 -- From: Frank_Karl-at-lincolnelectric.com 8, 22 -- X-MIMETrack: CD-MIME by Router on Notescom1/Lincoln Electric/US(Release 8.0.1|February 8, 22 -- 07, 2008) at 01/08/2010 02:40:14 PM, 8, 22 -- CD-MIME complete at 01/08/2010 02:40:14 PM, 8, 22 -- Itemize by Router on Notescom1/Lincoln Electric/US(Release 8.0.1|February 8, 22 -- 07, 2008) at 01/08/2010 02:40:14 PM, 8, 22 -- Serialize by Router on Notescom1/Lincoln Electric/US(Release 8.0.1|February 8, 22 -- 07, 2008) at 01/08/2010 02:40:14 PM, 8, 22 -- Serialize complete at 01/08/2010 02:40:14 PM 8, 22 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 8, 22 -- Content-Type: text/plain; 8, 22 -- charset="US-ASCII" ==============================End of - Headers==============================
Randy, I have had similar concerns through out my research career. They go back to the early days of Photoshop and the investigator who wanted to alter intensities of bands in gels because he knew those extra bands were just "mistakes". We provide written reports with all service projects that contain all sample prep info, summary of results, our observations, and any explanations, suggestions,or concerns we have. These are given to the students but also sent to the PI. Our responsibility ends there unless we are asked for further input. The reports are for our internal records as well as to help the researchers. I also refuse co-authorships unless I have the opportunity to edit the manuscript and agree with the conclusions.
Debby Debby Sherman, Director Life Science Microscopy Facility Purdue University
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 8, 2010, at 8:45 AM, "TindallR-at-missouri.edu" {TindallR-at-missouri.edu } wrote:
} } } } --- } --- } ---------------------------------------------------------------------- } The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of } America } To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver } On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html } --- } --- } ---------------------------------------------------------------------- } } The list has been a little slow lately, so here's a topic for } potential discussion: } } On occasion we look at things in our scopes that have no good basis } for reference---no previous publications, no other EM images to } compare with---you get the picture. My method has been to take } representative images of what is there, even if the images have a } wide variety of things in them that don't resemble each other or } what the sample supposedly "should" look like. } } It's that "should" that is the problem. It sometimes happens when } we send these images to the clients that they grab onto whatever } looks like what they want to see, pretty much ignore anything else, } then starting making assertions about the images that go waaaay } beyond what the image can support and want to plug all that into a } publication. (I've had people get all Eureka! about the } "champagning" artifact on a negatively-stained prep, for example.) } } } So the question is, if the EM operator has a reasonable suspicion, } but not a certainty, that an image is showing artifact or something } that is not really the part of the sample the researcher wants to } see, how should that be handled? Should we send the images along } with our caveats and risk having them having them published with } interpretations that go beyond the data and may just be dead wrong? } Or should we self-censor and not send these images? } } Remember, I'm not talking about things that we KNOW are artifact or } garbage. That's a clear call. I'm talking about imaging things } that may not have been seen before, and nobody really knows what } they look like (but they think they do), thereby making it difficult } to separate artifact from real data. What we do now is send the } images with our comments and hope that the client isn't so desperate } for a publication that they ignore our cautions. We are virtually } never listed as co-authors so that's not really an issue, but } still.....I like clean science. } } How do other members of the Collective handle these cases? } } Cheers and stay warm! } } Randy } } Randy Tindall } Senior EM Specialist } Electron Microscopy Core Facility---We Do Small Well! } W125 Veterinary Medicine } University of Missouri } Columbia, MO 65211 } Tel: (573) 882-8304 } Fax: (573) 884-2227 } Email: tindallr-at-missouri.edu } Web: http://www.emc.missouri.edu } On-line calendar: http://biotech.rnet.missouri.edu/cgi-bin/Calcium310.pl?Op=Splash&Amount=Week&NavType=Both&Type=TimePlan } Sons of Norway: http://www.sofn.com } } } } } ==============================Original } Headers============================== } 13, 30 -- From TindallR-at-missouri.edu Fri Jan 8 10:43:48 2010 } 13, 30 -- Received: from mxtip01-umsystem-out.um.umsystem.edu (mxtip01-umsystem-out.um.umsystem.edu } [209.106.229.49]) } 13, 30 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with } ESMTP id o08Ghlvw029554 } 13, 30 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 } 10:43:47 -0600 } 13, 30 -- X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true } 13, 30 -- X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ai0FACfvRkvRauUp/ } 2dsb2JhbACaMIILrSEBCYUfhV2CRoFpBA } 13, 30 -- Received: from unknown (HELO um-nsmtpout1.um.umsystem.edu) } ([209.106.229.41]) } 13, 30 -- by mxtip01-missouri-out.um.umsystem.edu with ESMTP; 08 } Jan 2010 10:43:47 -0600 } 13, 30 -- Received: from UM-THUB01.um.umsystem.edu } ([209.106.230.181]) by um-nsmtpout1.um.umsystem.edu with Microsoft } SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); } 13, 30 -- Fri, 8 Jan 2010 10:43:47 -0600 } 13, 30 -- Received: from um-email06.um.umsystem.edu ([169.254.1.71]) } by } 13, 30 -- UM-THUB01.um.umsystem.edu ([209.106.230.181]) with mapi; } Fri, 8 Jan 2010 } 13, 30 -- 10:43:46 -0600 } 13, 30 -- From: "Tindall, Randy D." {TindallR-at-missouri.edu} } 13, 30 -- To: "microscopy-at-microscopy.com" {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} } 13, 30 -- Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 10:43:45 -0600 } 13, 30 -- Subject: EM imaging: Self-censorship? } 13, 30 -- Thread-Topic: EM imaging: Self-censorship? } 13, 30 -- Thread-Index: AcqQgb56tpTajBGETxiqxqY+yQSBPQ== } 13, 30 -- Message-ID: {9422E68616A7C648A281C0B5CD22A4B8224C4659E9-at-UM-EMAIL06.um.umsystem.edu } } } 13, 30 -- Accept-Language: en-US } 13, 30 -- Content-Language: en-US } 13, 30 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: } 13, 30 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: } 13, 30 -- acceptlanguage: en-US } 13, 30 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" } 13, 30 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 } 13, 30 -- X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Jan 2010 16:43:47.0452 (UTC) } FILETIME=[BFAE1BC0:01CA9081] } 13, 30 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit } 13, 30 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com } id o08Ghlvw029554 } ==============================End of - } Headers==============================
==============================Original Headers============================== 7, 33 -- From dsherman-at-purdue.edu Fri Jan 8 13:54:39 2010 7, 33 -- Received: from mailhub128.itcs.purdue.edu (mailhub128.itcs.purdue.edu [128.210.5.128]) 7, 33 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o08Jscxd002704 7, 33 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 13:54:38 -0600 7, 33 -- Received: from mailhub127.itcs.purdue.edu (mailhub127.itcs.purdue.edu [128.210.5.127]) 7, 33 -- by mailhub128.itcs.purdue.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2/smtp-nopmx) with ESMTP id o08JscbR019777 7, 33 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 14:54:38 -0500 7, 33 -- Received: from WPPEXHUB01F.purdue.lcl (wppexhub01f.itap.purdue.edu [172.21.6.90]) 7, 33 -- by mailhub127.itcs.purdue.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2/exchange-outbound) with ESMTP id o08JsclV024512 7, 33 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 14:54:38 -0500 7, 33 -- Received: from VPEXCH04.purdue.lcl ([169.254.2.93]) by WPPEXHUB01F.purdue.lcl 7, 33 -- ([::1]) with mapi; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 14:54:37 -0500 7, 33 -- From: "Sherman, Debra M" {dsherman-at-purdue.edu} 7, 33 -- To: "TindallR-at-missouri.edu" {TindallR-at-missouri.edu} 7, 33 -- CC: "message to: MSA list" {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 7, 33 -- Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 14:54:27 -0500 7, 33 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] EM imaging: Self-censorship? 7, 33 -- Thread-Topic: [Microscopy] EM imaging: Self-censorship? 7, 33 -- Thread-Index: AcqQnGhFT9kx7qdlSW2CFOsd9cQOIg== 7, 33 -- Message-ID: {1843CE4D-6C96-46C0-8123-15C1FF656AA1-at-purdue.edu} 7, 33 -- References: {201001081645.o08Gjk4Q032553-at-ns.microscopy.com} 7, 33 -- In-Reply-To: {201001081645.o08Gjk4Q032553-at-ns.microscopy.com} 7, 33 -- Accept-Language: en-US 7, 33 -- Content-Language: en-US 7, 33 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: 7, 33 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 7, 33 -- acceptlanguage: en-US 7, 33 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 7, 33 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 7, 33 -- X-PMX-Version: 5.5.7.378829 7, 33 -- X-PerlMx-Virus-Scanned: Yes 7, 33 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 7, 33 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o08Jscxd002704 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
Hi All- I'd like to thank everyone who responded to my earlier inquiry. I've had responses on-list, off-list and by telephone. Some people contacted me with suggestions for hunting down the source of our spike, others simply to commiserate, and others to offer comments about the systems they have in their facilities. It seems that most of the people who have systems to cancel EMI are happy with them, regardless of the manufacturer. They all seem to do the job. That said, the decision might boil down to cost but the estimates I got were all in the same ballpark, so a couple of thousand one way or another won't be my deciding factor. I did decide on a full room system rather than a cage around the column or the microscope for both esthetics and ease of access to the microscope. The vendors may be saddened to hear this, but the systems just don't seem to be that different from one another when you get down to the user's perspective. So, get your estimates, talk to the vendors' reps. It may boil down to using the company that has engineers nearest you geographically, or with whom you establish an easy rapport. They did the rocket science, you don't have to.
Lee -- Lee Cohen-Gould, M.S. Sr. Staff Associate in Biochemistry and Cell & Developmental Biology Director, Electron Microscopy & Histology and Optical Microscopy Core Facilities Weill Cornell Medical College
Please spare a thought for those working in the field of Diagnostic Pathology!
regards Naomi
Naomi McCallum Supervising Scientist, EM Unit Pathology Queensland
} } } {TindallR-at-missouri.edu} 9/01/2010 2:53 am } } }
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The list has been a little slow lately, so here's a topic for potential discussion:
On occasion we look at things in our scopes that have no good basis for reference---no previous publications, no other EM images to compare with---you get the picture. My method has been to take representative images of what is there, even if the images have a wide variety of things in them that don't resemble each other or what the sample supposedly "should" look like.
It's that "should" that is the problem. It sometimes happens when we send these images to the clients that they grab onto whatever looks like what they want to see, pretty much ignore anything else, then starting making assertions about the images that go waaaay beyond what the image can support and want to plug all that into a publication. (I've had people get all Eureka! about the "champagning" artifact on a negatively-stained prep, for example.)
So the question is, if the EM operator has a reasonable suspicion, but not a certainty, that an image is showing artifact or something that is not really the part of the sample the researcher wants to see, how should that be handled? Should we send the images along with our caveats and risk having them having them published with interpretations that go beyond the data and may just be dead wrong? Or should we self-censor and not send these images?
Remember, I'm not talking about things that we KNOW are artifact or garbage. That's a clear call. I'm talking about imaging things that may not have been seen before, and nobody really knows what they look like (but they think they do), thereby making it difficult to separate artifact from real data. What we do now is send the images with our comments and hope that the client isn't so desperate for a publication that they ignore our cautions. We are virtually never listed as co-authors so that's not really an issue, but still.....I like clean science.
How do other members of the Collective handle these cases?
Cheers and stay warm!
Randy
Randy Tindall Senior EM Specialist Electron Microscopy Core Facility---We Do Small Well! W125 Veterinary Medicine University of Missouri Columbia, MO 65211 Tel: (573) 882-8304 Fax: (573) 884-2227 Email: tindallr-at-missouri.edu Web: http://www.emc.missouri.edu On-line calendar: http://biotech.rnet.missouri.edu/cgi-bin/Calcium310.pl?Op=Splash&Amount=Week&NavType=Both&Type=TimePlan Sons of Norway: http://www.sofn.com
==============================Original Headers============================== 13, 30 -- From TindallR-at-missouri.edu Fri Jan 8 10:43:48 2010 13, 30 -- Received: from mxtip01-umsystem-out.um.umsystem.edu (mxtip01-umsystem-out.um.umsystem.edu [209.106.229.49]) 13, 30 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o08Ghlvw029554 13, 30 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 10:43:47 -0600 13, 30 -- X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true 13, 30 -- X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ai0FACfvRkvRauUp/2dsb2JhbACaMIILrSEBCYUfhV2CRoFpBA 13, 30 -- Received: from unknown (HELO um-nsmtpout1.um.umsystem.edu) ([209.106.229.41]) 13, 30 -- by mxtip01-missouri-out.um.umsystem.edu with ESMTP; 08 Jan 2010 10:43:47 -0600 13, 30 -- Received: from UM-THUB01.um.umsystem.edu ([209.106.230.181]) by um-nsmtpout1.um.umsystem.edu with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); 13, 30 -- Fri, 8 Jan 2010 10:43:47 -0600 13, 30 -- Received: from um-email06.um.umsystem.edu ([169.254.1.71]) by 13, 30 -- UM-THUB01.um.umsystem.edu ([209.106.230.181]) with mapi; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 13, 30 -- 10:43:46 -0600 13, 30 -- From: "Tindall, Randy D." {TindallR-at-missouri.edu} 13, 30 -- To: "microscopy-at-microscopy.com" {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 13, 30 -- Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 10:43:45 -0600 13, 30 -- Subject: EM imaging: Self-censorship? 13, 30 -- Thread-Topic: EM imaging: Self-censorship? 13, 30 -- Thread-Index: AcqQgb56tpTajBGETxiqxqY+yQSBPQ== 13, 30 -- Message-ID: {9422E68616A7C648A281C0B5CD22A4B8224C4659E9-at-UM-EMAIL06.um.umsystem.edu} 13, 30 -- Accept-Language: en-US 13, 30 -- Content-Language: en-US 13, 30 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: 13, 30 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 13, 30 -- acceptlanguage: en-US 13, 30 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 13, 30 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 13, 30 -- X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Jan 2010 16:43:47.0452 (UTC) FILETIME=[BFAE1BC0:01CA9081] 13, 30 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 13, 30 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o08Ghlvw029554 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
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==============================Original Headers============================== 3, 25 -- From prvs=16249b7b1e=naomi_mccallum-at-health.qld.gov.au Fri Jan 8 17:44:34 2010 3, 25 -- Received: from gwd-mailedge04.health.qld.gov.au (smtp2.health.qld.gov.au [165.86.81.113]) 3, 25 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o08NiXeg009858 3, 25 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Fri, 8 Jan 2010 17:44:33 -0600 3, 25 -- Received: from gwd-mail05.remote.health.qld.gov.au (gwd-mail05.remote.health.qld.gov.au [192.168.3.52]) 3, 25 -- by gwd-mailedge04.health.qld.gov.au (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o08NiQk3032580 3, 25 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Sat, 9 Jan 2010 09:44:26 +1000 3, 25 -- Received: from health-cs11.health.qld.gov.au (unverified [10.17.112.31]) by 3, 25 -- gwd-mail05.remote.health.qld.gov.au (Queensland Health SMTP Server) 3, 25 -- with ESMTP id 3, 25 -- {T931ee12d07c0a803341e4c-at-gwd-mail05.remote.health.qld.gov.au} for 3, 25 -- {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Sat, 9 Jan 2010 09:44:26 +1000 3, 25 -- Received: from CORPORATE-GWIA01-MTA by health-cs11.health.qld.gov.au with 3, 25 -- Novell_GroupWise; Sat, 09 Jan 2010 09:44:26 +1000 3, 25 -- Message-Id: {4B484FE0.88BE.00AA.0-at-health.qld.gov.au} 3, 25 -- X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 7.0.3 3, 25 -- Date: Sat, 09 Jan 2010 09:44:05 +1000 3, 25 -- From: "Naomi Mccallum" {naomi_mccallum-at-health.qld.gov.au} 3, 25 -- To: {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 3, 25 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] EM imaging: Self-censorship? 3, 25 -- Mime-Version: 1.0 3, 25 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 3, 25 -- Content-Disposition: inline 3, 25 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 3, 25 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o08NiXeg009858 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
This Question/Comment was submitted to the Microscopy Listserver using the WWW based Form at http://www.microscopy.com/MLFormMail.html --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Remember this posting is most likely not from a Subscriber, so when replying please copy both arnec-at-bio.umass.edu as well as the MIcroscopy Listserver ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Email: arnec-at-bio.umass.edu Name: Arne
Title-Subject: [Filtered] Histology stains for the retina
Question: Dear Listeners,
I'm putting together a lab-based presentation for an undergraduate biology class. The presentation will focus on the retina. I have some PFA fixed retinal tissue sections, and I'm seeking advice for vibrant, informative stains. I'm not familiar with many of the standard histological staining protocols, as I deal more with IF, but the lab is not set up for fluorescent microscopy. We have these on hand:
Acriflavin Basic Fuchsin Carmine Aluma Lake Crystal Violet Eosin Fast Green FCF Giesma Malachite Green Meyer's Hematoxylin Orcein Sudan Black B Toluidine Blue O Trypan Blue
Does anybody have any favorite stains/protocols for retinal tissue?
} So what am I trying to say? I suspect the solution to releasing images, } which are owned by the client but which you have a stake in (you took it } after all) is to add limiting verbiage to the filename. I suspect } something like "-poss-artifact-" "--unexpt structure-" added to the } filename will at least have the client calling for additional information.
[snip]
How about a different question relative to this topic, among others?
If a microscopist takes a pix for a client, how is the copyright handled, if at all? By law, the microscopist owns the copyright. Charging for the pix does not transfer the copyright.
I'm sure that the pix are never registered. How does this work in practice? Is there a contract or Ts&Cs that say that the copyright passes to the client?
Just wondering.
gary g.
==============================Original Headers============================== 13, 20 -- From gary-at-gaugler.com Sat Jan 9 10:23:00 2010 13, 20 -- Received: from smtp2.mc.surewest.net (qsmtp.mc.surewest.net [66.60.130.145]) 13, 20 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with SMTP id o09GMxnE022786 13, 20 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Sat, 9 Jan 2010 10:23:00 -0600 13, 20 -- Message-Id: {201001091623.o09GMxnE022786-at-ns.microscopy.com} 13, 20 -- Received: (qmail 11680 invoked from network); 9 Jan 2010 07:57:46 -0800 13, 20 -- Received: by simscan 1.1.0 ppid: 11677, pid: 11678, t: 0.1456s 13, 20 -- scanners: regex: 1.1.0 attach: 1.1.0 13, 20 -- Received: from unknown (HELO thor.gaugler.com) (66.60.171.211) 13, 20 -- by smtp2 with SMTP; 9 Jan 2010 07:57:46 -0800 13, 20 -- X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 13, 20 -- Date: Sat, 09 Jan 2010 08:23:01 -0800 13, 20 -- To: Frank_Karl-at-lincolnelectric.com 13, 20 -- From: Gary Gaugler {gary-at-gaugler.com} 13, 20 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] Re: EM imaging: Self-censorship? 13, 20 -- Cc: MSA listserver {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 13, 20 -- In-Reply-To: {201001081941.o08JfbU4022518-at-ns.microscopy.com} 13, 20 -- References: {201001081941.o08JfbU4022518-at-ns.microscopy.com} 13, 20 -- Mime-Version: 1.0 13, 20 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed ==============================End of - Headers==============================
Any image published in a journal is copyrighted and in almost all cases that copyright belongs to the journal. One generally has to sign away the copyright when submitting a paper for publication.
But one doesn't have to publish or register a work for it to be copyrighted. Creation of the work is enough.
I am not sure I buy your argument that the copyright belongs to the microscopist who took the image. I am not a lawyer but currently sitting on a committee re-writing our University's intellectual property rules. The lawyer on the committee recently stated that all who contribute to the creation of a work have equal rights. So if anyone in a lab prepared the tissue, fixed, embedded, sectioned, etc. they might have some claim. On the other hand, standard practice is the Principal Investigator "owns" the data in the sense he or she is responsible for maintaining it - others have additional rights and responsibilities but typical lab policy is that original data, whether it is photographic, gels, Western/Northern/Southern blots, or lab notebooks would remain in the laboratory where they were created. My students and technicians are not allowed to take the original copies of notebooks out of the lab but have the opportunity to take copies of all their work. My guess is that is a core technician claimed "ownership" rights to an image done on a strict for fee basis, they might have some rights but would be looking for a new job. The International Committee of Medical Journal Editorships (http://www.icmje.org/ethical_1author.html) states that "Authorship credit should be based on 1) substantial contributions to conception and design, acquisition of data, or analysis and interpretation of data; 2) drafting the article or revising it critically for important intellectual content; and 3) final approval of the version to be published. Authors should meet conditions 1, 2, and 3." Simply photographing an image isn't sufficient to claim a right to authorship and it shouldn't be enough to claim "ownership" of the interpretation.
Thomas E. Phillips, Ph.D Professor of Biological Sciences Director, Molecular Cytology Core 2 Tucker Hall University of Missouri Columbia, MO 65211-7400 573-882-4712 (office) 573-882-0123 (fax) phillipst-at-missouri.edu
-----Original Message----- X-from: gary-at-gaugler.com [mailto:gary-at-gaugler.com] Sent: Saturday, January 09, 2010 10:24 AM To: Phillips, Thomas E.
At 11:41 AM 1/8/2010, you wrote:
[snip]
} So what am I trying to say? I suspect the solution to releasing images, } which are owned by the client but which you have a stake in (you took it } after all) is to add limiting verbiage to the filename. I suspect } something like "-poss-artifact-" "--unexpt structure-" added to the } filename will at least have the client calling for additional information.
[snip]
How about a different question relative to this topic, among others?
If a microscopist takes a pix for a client, how is the copyright handled, if at all? By law, the microscopist owns the copyright. Charging for the pix does not transfer the copyright.
I'm sure that the pix are never registered. How does this work in practice? Is there a contract or Ts&Cs that say that the copyright passes to the client?
Just wondering.
gary g.
==============================Original Headers============================== 13, 20 -- From gary-at-gaugler.com Sat Jan 9 10:23:00 2010 13, 20 -- Received: from smtp2.mc.surewest.net (qsmtp.mc.surewest.net [66.60.130.145]) 13, 20 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with SMTP id o09GMxnE022786 13, 20 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Sat, 9 Jan 2010 10:23:00 -0600 13, 20 -- Message-Id: {201001091623.o09GMxnE022786-at-ns.microscopy.com} 13, 20 -- Received: (qmail 11680 invoked from network); 9 Jan 2010 07:57:46 -0800 13, 20 -- Received: by simscan 1.1.0 ppid: 11677, pid: 11678, t: 0.1456s 13, 20 -- scanners: regex: 1.1.0 attach: 1.1.0 13, 20 -- Received: from unknown (HELO thor.gaugler.com) (66.60.171.211) 13, 20 -- by smtp2 with SMTP; 9 Jan 2010 07:57:46 -0800 13, 20 -- X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 13, 20 -- Date: Sat, 09 Jan 2010 08:23:01 -0800 13, 20 -- To: Frank_Karl-at-lincolnelectric.com 13, 20 -- From: Gary Gaugler {gary-at-gaugler.com} 13, 20 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] Re: EM imaging: Self-censorship? 13, 20 -- Cc: MSA listserver {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 13, 20 -- In-Reply-To: {201001081941.o08JfbU4022518-at-ns.microscopy.com} 13, 20 -- References: {201001081941.o08JfbU4022518-at-ns.microscopy.com} 13, 20 -- Mime-Version: 1.0 13, 20 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed ==============================End of - Headers==============================
==============================Original Headers============================== 26, 34 -- From PhillipsT-at-missouri.edu Sat Jan 9 12:05:11 2010 26, 34 -- Received: from mxnip01-missouri-out.um.umsystem.edu (mxnip01-missouri-out.um.umsystem.edu [209.106.229.53]) 26, 34 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o09I5Bss011728 26, 34 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Sat, 9 Jan 2010 12:05:11 -0600 26, 34 -- X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true 26, 34 -- X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApoEAJJUSEvRauUo/2dsb2JhbADKAgEJhGaFVgKCRIFpBA 26, 34 -- Received: from unknown (HELO um-tsmtpout1.um.umsystem.edu) ([209.106.229.40]) 26, 34 -- by mxnip01-missouri-out.um.umsystem.edu with ESMTP; 09 Jan 2010 12:05:10 -0600 26, 34 -- Received: from UM-NHUB02.um.umsystem.edu ([209.106.230.182]) by um-tsmtpout1.um.umsystem.edu with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); 26, 34 -- Sat, 9 Jan 2010 12:05:10 -0600 26, 34 -- Received: from um-email05.um.umsystem.edu ([169.254.1.61]) by 26, 34 -- UM-NHUB02.um.umsystem.edu ([209.106.230.182]) with mapi; Sat, 9 Jan 2010 26, 34 -- 12:05:10 -0600 26, 34 -- From: "Phillips, Thomas E." {PhillipsT-at-missouri.edu} 26, 34 -- To: "gary-at-gaugler.com" {gary-at-gaugler.com} , 26, 34 -- "microscopy-at-microscopy.com" 26, 34 -- {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 26, 34 -- Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2010 12:05:09 -0600 26, 34 -- Subject: RE: [Microscopy] EM imaging: Self-censorship? 26, 34 -- Thread-Topic: [Microscopy] EM imaging: Self-censorship? 26, 34 -- Thread-Index: AcqRSCGFHk4OfSvSR3CV+R+VFdcbiQAC+ncw 26, 34 -- Message-ID: {616B99DC91A1D64A9BC81BA4326586DF07E5D0EEF8-at-UM-EMAIL05.um.umsystem.edu} 26, 34 -- References: {201001091623.o09GNouH023903-at-ns.microscopy.com} 26, 34 -- In-Reply-To: {201001091623.o09GNouH023903-at-ns.microscopy.com} 26, 34 -- Accept-Language: en-US 26, 34 -- Content-Language: en-US 26, 34 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: 26, 34 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 26, 34 -- acceptlanguage: en-US 26, 34 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 26, 34 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 26, 34 -- X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Jan 2010 18:05:10.0751 (UTC) FILETIME=[48C426F0:01CA9156] 26, 34 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 26, 34 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o09I5Bss011728 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
________________________________________ X-from: PhillipsT-at-missouri.edu [PhillipsT-at-missouri.edu] Sent: Saturday, January 09, 2010 1:14 PM To: Monson, Frederick
Any image published in a journal is copyrighted and in almost all cases that copyright belongs to the journal. One generally has to sign away the copyright when submitting a paper for publication.
But one doesn't have to publish or register a work for it to be copyrighted. Creation of the work is enough.
I am not sure I buy your argument that the copyright belongs to the microscopist who took the image. I am not a lawyer but currently sitting on a committee re-writing our University's intellectual property rules. The lawyer on the committee recently stated that all who contribute to the creation of a work have equal rights. So if anyone in a lab prepared the tissue, fixed, embedded, sectioned, etc. they might have some claim. On the other hand, standard practice is the Principal Investigator "owns" the data in the sense he or she is responsible for maintaining it - others have additional rights and responsibilities but typical lab policy is that original data, whether it is photographic, gels, Western/Northern/Southern blots, or lab notebooks would remain in the laboratory where they were created. My students and technicians are not allowed to take the original copies of notebooks out of the lab but have the opportunity to take copies of all their work. My guess is that is a! core technician claimed "ownership" rights to an image done on a strict for fee basis, they might have some rights but would be looking for a new job. The International Committee of Medical Journal Editorships (http://www.icmje.org/ethical_1author.html) states that "Authorship credit should be based on 1) substantial contributions to conception and design, acquisition of data, or analysis and interpretation of data; 2) drafting the article or revising it critically for important intellectual content; and 3) final approval of the version to be published. Authors should meet conditions 1, 2, and 3." Simply photographing an image isn't sufficient to claim a right to authorship and it shouldn't be enough to claim "ownership" of the interpretation.
Thomas E. Phillips, Ph.D Professor of Biological Sciences Director, Molecular Cytology Core 2 Tucker Hall University of Missouri Columbia, MO 65211-7400 573-882-4712 (office) 573-882-0123 (fax) phillipst-at-missouri.edu
-----Original Message----- X-from: gary-at-gaugler.com [mailto:gary-at-gaugler.com] Sent: Saturday, January 09, 2010 10:24 AM To: Phillips, Thomas E.
At 11:41 AM 1/8/2010, you wrote:
[snip]
} So what am I trying to say? I suspect the solution to releasing images, } which are owned by the client but which you have a stake in (you took it } after all) is to add limiting verbiage to the filename. I suspect } something like "-poss-artifact-" "--unexpt structure-" added to the } filename will at least have the client calling for additional information.
[snip]
How about a different question relative to this topic, among others?
If a microscopist takes a pix for a client, how is the copyright handled, if at all? By law, the microscopist owns the copyright. Charging for the pix does not transfer the copyright.
I'm sure that the pix are never registered. How does this work in practice? Is there a contract or Ts&Cs that say that the copyright passes to the client?
Just wondering.
gary g.
==============================Original Headers============================== 13, 20 -- From gary-at-gaugler.com Sat Jan 9 10:23:00 2010 13, 20 -- Received: from smtp2.mc.surewest.net (qsmtp.mc.surewest.net [66.60.130.145]) 13, 20 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with SMTP id o09GMxnE022786 13, 20 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Sat, 9 Jan 2010 10:23:00 -0600 13, 20 -- Message-Id: {201001091623.o09GMxnE022786-at-ns.microscopy.com} 13, 20 -- Received: (qmail 11680 invoked from network); 9 Jan 2010 07:57:46 -0800 13, 20 -- Received: by simscan 1.1.0 ppid: 11677, pid: 11678, t: 0.1456s 13, 20 -- scanners: regex: 1.1.0 attach: 1.1.0 13, 20 -- Received: from unknown (HELO thor.gaugler.com) (66.60.171.211) 13, 20 -- by smtp2 with SMTP; 9 Jan 2010 07:57:46 -0800 13, 20 -- X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 13, 20 -- Date: Sat, 09 Jan 2010 08:23:01 -0800 13, 20 -- To: Frank_Karl-at-lincolnelectric.com 13, 20 -- From: Gary Gaugler {gary-at-gaugler.com} 13, 20 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] Re: EM imaging: Self-censorship? 13, 20 -- Cc: MSA listserver {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 13, 20 -- In-Reply-To: {201001081941.o08JfbU4022518-at-ns.microscopy.com} 13, 20 -- References: {201001081941.o08JfbU4022518-at-ns.microscopy.com} 13, 20 -- Mime-Version: 1.0 13, 20 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed ==============================End of - Headers==============================
==============================Original Headers============================== 26, 34 -- From PhillipsT-at-missouri.edu Sat Jan 9 12:05:11 2010 26, 34 -- Received: from mxnip01-missouri-out.um.umsystem.edu (mxnip01-missouri-out.um.umsystem.edu [209.106.229.53]) 26, 34 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o09I5Bss011728 26, 34 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Sat, 9 Jan 2010 12:05:11 -0600 26, 34 -- X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true 26, 34 -- X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApoEAJJUSEvRauUo/2dsb2JhbADKAgEJhGaFVgKCRIFpBA 26, 34 -- Received: from unknown (HELO um-tsmtpout1.um.umsystem.edu) ([209.106.229.40]) 26, 34 -- by mxnip01-missouri-out.um.umsystem.edu with ESMTP; 09 Jan 2010 12:05:10 -0600 26, 34 -- Received: from UM-NHUB02.um.umsystem.edu ([209.106.230.182]) by um-tsmtpout1.um.umsystem.edu with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); 26, 34 -- Sat, 9 Jan 2010 12:05:10 -0600 26, 34 -- Received: from um-email05.um.umsystem.edu ([169.254.1.61]) by 26, 34 -- UM-NHUB02.um.umsystem.edu ([209.106.230.182]) with mapi; Sat, 9 Jan 2010 26, 34 -- 12:05:10 -0600 26, 34 -- From: "Phillips, Thomas E." {PhillipsT-at-missouri.edu} 26, 34 -- To: "gary-at-gaugler.com" {gary-at-gaugler.com} , 26, 34 -- "microscopy-at-microscopy.com" 26, 34 -- {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 26, 34 -- Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2010 12:05:09 -0600 26, 34 -- Subject: RE: [Microscopy] EM imaging: Self-censorship? 26, 34 -- Thread-Topic: [Microscopy] EM imaging: Self-censorship? 26, 34 -- Thread-Index: AcqRSCGFHk4OfSvSR3CV+R+VFdcbiQAC+ncw 26, 34 -- Message-ID: {616B99DC91A1D64A9BC81BA4326586DF07E5D0EEF8-at-UM-EMAIL05.um.umsystem.edu} 26, 34 -- References: {201001091623.o09GNouH023903-at-ns.microscopy.com} 26, 34 -- In-Reply-To: {201001091623.o09GNouH023903-at-ns.microscopy.com} 26, 34 -- Accept-Language: en-US 26, 34 -- Content-Language: en-US 26, 34 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: 26, 34 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 26, 34 -- acceptlanguage: en-US 26, 34 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 26, 34 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 26, 34 -- X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Jan 2010 18:05:10.0751 (UTC) FILETIME=[48C426F0:01CA9156] 26, 34 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 26, 34 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o09I5Bss011728 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
==============================Original Headers============================== 32, 28 -- From FMonson-at-wcupa.edu Sun Jan 10 18:40:53 2010 32, 28 -- Received: from WCU-EX-ET2.PASSHE.LCL (wcu-ex-et2.wcupa.edu [144.26.0.60]) 32, 28 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0B0eqKl030718 32, 28 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Sun, 10 Jan 2010 18:40:52 -0600 32, 28 -- Received: from WCU-EX-HT-CA3.PASSHE.LCL (10.32.4.150) by WCU-EX-ET2.PASSHE.LCL 32, 28 -- (10.32.0.63) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.213.0; Sun, 10 Jan 2010 32, 28 -- 19:40:51 -0500 32, 28 -- Received: from WCU-EX-EMP1-MB.PASSHE.LCL ([fe80::552b:545e:4665:c1fc]) by 32, 28 -- WCU-EX-HT-CA3.PASSHE.LCL ([::1]) with mapi; Sun, 10 Jan 2010 19:40:51 -0500 32, 28 -- From: "Monson, Frederick" {FMonson-at-wcupa.edu} 32, 28 -- To: "PhillipsT-at-missouri.edu" {PhillipsT-at-missouri.edu} 32, 28 -- CC: "microscopy-at-microscopy.com" {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 32, 28 -- Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 19:40:23 -0500 32, 28 -- Subject: RE: [Microscopy] RE: EM imaging: Self-censorship? 32, 28 -- Thread-Topic: [Microscopy] RE: EM imaging: Self-censorship? 32, 28 -- Thread-Index: AcqRYHHxOP6T3EuURcKAHDpjgTqJaQA9jczY 32, 28 -- Message-ID: {86FEE8BCF5652949A08D1EB0545EB4240496C65963-at-WCU-EX-EMP1-MB.PASSHE.LCL} 32, 28 -- References: {201001091814.o09IEj7p026061-at-ns.microscopy.com} 32, 28 -- In-Reply-To: {201001091814.o09IEj7p026061-at-ns.microscopy.com} 32, 28 -- Accept-Language: en-US 32, 28 -- Content-Language: en-US 32, 28 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: 32, 28 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 32, 28 -- acceptlanguage: en-US 32, 28 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 32, 28 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 32, 28 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 32, 28 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0B0eqKl030718 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
You are mixing a bunch of variables here. Specimen prep, documentation, notebooks, etc. are irrelevant with regards to a photographic image. Copyright law specifies that the person taking the image owns the copyright to that image.
Regarding publishing, yes, the venue requires transfer of copyright. Hence, I do not publish with pix worth money. For academic instances, I doubt that there is any argument about the image ownership and corresponding transfer of copyright.
} The International Committee of Medical Journal Editorships } (http://www.icmje.org/ethical_1author.html) states that "Authorship } credit should be based on 1) substantial contributions to conception } and design, acquisition of data, or analysis and interpretation of } data; 2) drafting the article or revising it critically for } important intellectual content; and 3) final approval of the version } to be published. Authors should meet conditions 1, 2, and 3." Simply } photographing an image isn't sufficient to claim a right to } authorship and it shouldn't be enough to claim "ownership" of the } interpretation.
Again, this topic has no connection to the image. These are separate issues. Authorship of the article is not tied to who took any images. The only tertiary issue is that if the image is submitted as a "Publication as a Contribution." This pertains to a periodical, serial or collection.
The transfer of the author's inherent/indigenous copyright either freely or for a fee dismisses the original author's copyright and transfers it to the second party. This seems simple enough. But the story does not stop here. The issue of copyright registration remains a big deal. I refer you to US Copyright Office Form VA. There is no provision for specimen prep, et. al.
This form, plus deposit of representation of the works plus the deposit fee REGISTERS the copyright to the copyright owner. This is a big deal. Huge. If someone infringes on the original inherent copyright, the extent of collection of damages is limited to actual loss. In normal practice, that is trivial and difficult to prove. However, if a registered image is infringed, that allows punitive damages to be added to any actual loss--and the actual loss is examined more closely.
Form VA allows for multiple authors. But the nature of Authorship for what we are talking about is focused on "Photograph." Specimen prep, et. al. are not at all at issue or relevant for Form VA and thus, formal registration.
Infringing on a registered image is a serious issue and can cost the infringer big bucks...depending on the specifics of the infringement. It could be $1K to $100K...or more. As long as a potential user knows that the image is registered, they are much more careful to a frontal charge against a registered image.
I am not a lawyer, but my registered images have been infringed. All instances were settled amicably. This issue is infrequent.
I would encourage more discussion about this topic to help those who have to deal with this issue either for publication, ownership, or whatever.
Should I change the Subject entry from Self-censorship to copyrights? I recall discussing this copyright topic on the list perhaps five years ago. AFAK, the law is the same today as then...but there are efforts underway to torpedo orphan works.
gary g.
At 04:43 PM 1/10/2010, you wrote:
} ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of America
==============================Original Headers============================== 20, 20 -- From gary-at-gaugler.com Sun Jan 10 19:53:40 2010 20, 20 -- Received: from smtp1.mc.surewest.net (qsmtp.mc.surewest.net [66.60.130.145]) 20, 20 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with SMTP id o0B1refK015589 20, 20 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Sun, 10 Jan 2010 19:53:40 -0600 20, 20 -- Message-Id: {201001110153.o0B1refK015589-at-ns.microscopy.com} 20, 20 -- Received: (qmail 26061 invoked from network); 10 Jan 2010 18:39:45 -0800 20, 20 -- Received: by simscan 1.1.0 ppid: 26058, pid: 26059, t: 0.2628s 20, 20 -- scanners: regex: 1.1.0 attach: 1.1.0 20, 20 -- Received: from unknown (HELO thor.gaugler.com) (66.60.171.211) 20, 20 -- by smtp1 with SMTP; 10 Jan 2010 18:39:44 -0800 20, 20 -- X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 20, 20 -- Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 17:53:40 -0800 20, 20 -- To: FMonson-at-wcupa.edu 20, 20 -- From: Gary Gaugler {gary-at-gaugler.com} 20, 20 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] EM imaging: Self-censorship? 20, 20 -- Cc: MSA listserver {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 20, 20 -- In-Reply-To: {201001110043.o0B0h18r000740-at-ns.microscopy.com} 20, 20 -- References: {201001110043.o0B0h18r000740-at-ns.microscopy.com} 20, 20 -- Mime-Version: 1.0 20, 20 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed ==============================End of - Headers==============================
To say the individual who takes an EM or LM photo has more rights than the one who fixed, embedded and sectioned it or the one who designed the experiment or the one who wrote the grant that got it suggests we have different backgrounds and understanding of how science is done but I don't have interest, expertise or time to get into a discussion of arcane details of copyright. Two non-lawyers discussing it is not especially authoritative nor useful. I don't see this as an issue that will ever impact my career as a research scientist. But I don't accept your interpretation since it contains circular logic. I can't transfer copyright unless I own it.
Thomas E. Phillips, Ph.D. Professor of Biological Sciences Director, Molecular Cytology Core 2 Tucker Hall Biological Sciences University of Missouri Columbia, MO 65211-7400 573-882-4712 (voice) 573-882-0123 (fax)
-----Original Message----- X-from: gary-at-gaugler.com [mailto:gary-at-gaugler.com] Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 7:54 PM To: Phillips, Thomas E.
You are mixing a bunch of variables here. Specimen prep, documentation, notebooks, etc. are irrelevant with regards to a photographic image. Copyright law specifies that the person taking the image owns the copyright to that image.
Regarding publishing, yes, the venue requires transfer of copyright. Hence, I do not publish with pix worth money. For academic instances, I doubt that there is any argument about the image ownership and corresponding transfer of copyright.
} The International Committee of Medical Journal Editorships } (http://www.icmje.org/ethical_1author.html) states that "Authorship } credit should be based on 1) substantial contributions to conception } and design, acquisition of data, or analysis and interpretation of } data; 2) drafting the article or revising it critically for } important intellectual content; and 3) final approval of the version } to be published. Authors should meet conditions 1, 2, and 3." Simply } photographing an image isn't sufficient to claim a right to } authorship and it shouldn't be enough to claim "ownership" of the } interpretation.
Again, this topic has no connection to the image. These are separate issues. Authorship of the article is not tied to who took any images. The only tertiary issue is that if the image is submitted as a "Publication as a Contribution." This pertains to a periodical, serial or collection.
The transfer of the author's inherent/indigenous copyright either freely or for a fee dismisses the original author's copyright and transfers it to the second party. This seems simple enough. But the story does not stop here. The issue of copyright registration remains a big deal. I refer you to US Copyright Office Form VA. There is no provision for specimen prep, et. al.
This form, plus deposit of representation of the works plus the deposit fee REGISTERS the copyright to the copyright owner. This is a big deal. Huge. If someone infringes on the original inherent copyright, the extent of collection of damages is limited to actual loss. In normal practice, that is trivial and difficult to prove. However, if a registered image is infringed, that allows punitive damages to be added to any actual loss--and the actual loss is examined more closely.
Form VA allows for multiple authors. But the nature of Authorship for what we are talking about is focused on "Photograph." Specimen prep, et. al. are not at all at issue or relevant for Form VA and thus, formal registration.
Infringing on a registered image is a serious issue and can cost the infringer big bucks...depending on the specifics of the infringement. It could be $1K to $100K...or more. As long as a potential user knows that the image is registered, they are much more careful to a frontal charge against a registered image.
I am not a lawyer, but my registered images have been infringed. All instances were settled amicably. This issue is infrequent.
I would encourage more discussion about this topic to help those who have to deal with this issue either for publication, ownership, or whatever.
Should I change the Subject entry from Self-censorship to copyrights? I recall discussing this copyright topic on the list perhaps five years ago. AFAK, the law is the same today as then...but there are efforts underway to torpedo orphan works.
gary g.
At 04:43 PM 1/10/2010, you wrote:
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==============================Original Headers============================== 20, 20 -- From gary-at-gaugler.com Sun Jan 10 19:53:40 2010 20, 20 -- Received: from smtp1.mc.surewest.net (qsmtp.mc.surewest.net [66.60.130.145]) 20, 20 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with SMTP id o0B1refK015589 20, 20 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Sun, 10 Jan 2010 19:53:40 -0600 20, 20 -- Message-Id: {201001110153.o0B1refK015589-at-ns.microscopy.com} 20, 20 -- Received: (qmail 26061 invoked from network); 10 Jan 2010 18:39:45 -0800 20, 20 -- Received: by simscan 1.1.0 ppid: 26058, pid: 26059, t: 0.2628s 20, 20 -- scanners: regex: 1.1.0 attach: 1.1.0 20, 20 -- Received: from unknown (HELO thor.gaugler.com) (66.60.171.211) 20, 20 -- by smtp1 with SMTP; 10 Jan 2010 18:39:44 -0800 20, 20 -- X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 20, 20 -- Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 17:53:40 -0800 20, 20 -- To: FMonson-at-wcupa.edu 20, 20 -- From: Gary Gaugler {gary-at-gaugler.com} 20, 20 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] EM imaging: Self-censorship? 20, 20 -- Cc: MSA listserver {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 20, 20 -- In-Reply-To: {201001110043.o0B0h18r000740-at-ns.microscopy.com} 20, 20 -- References: {201001110043.o0B0h18r000740-at-ns.microscopy.com} 20, 20 -- Mime-Version: 1.0 20, 20 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed ==============================End of - Headers==============================
==============================Original Headers============================== 31, 40 -- From PhillipsT-at-missouri.edu Sun Jan 10 20:05:34 2010 31, 40 -- Received: from mxnip01-missouri-out.um.umsystem.edu (mxnip01-missouri-out.um.umsystem.edu [209.106.229.53]) 31, 40 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0B25YTr030322 31, 40 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Sun, 10 Jan 2010 20:05:34 -0600 31, 40 -- X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true 31, 40 -- X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApoEAJUWSkvRauUp/2dsb2JhbADKfAEJg3aFRQKCRIFpBIMZ 31, 40 -- Received: from unknown (HELO um-nsmtpout1.um.umsystem.edu) ([209.106.229.41]) 31, 40 -- by mxnip01-missouri-out.um.umsystem.edu with ESMTP; 10 Jan 2010 20:05:33 -0600 31, 40 -- Received: from UM-THUB01.um.umsystem.edu ([209.106.230.181]) by um-nsmtpout1.um.umsystem.edu with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); 31, 40 -- Sun, 10 Jan 2010 20:05:33 -0600 31, 40 -- Received: from um-email05.um.umsystem.edu ([169.254.1.61]) by 31, 40 -- UM-THUB01.um.umsystem.edu ([209.106.230.181]) with mapi; Sun, 10 Jan 2010 31, 40 -- 20:05:32 -0600 31, 40 -- From: "Phillips, Thomas E." {PhillipsT-at-missouri.edu} 31, 40 -- To: "gary-at-gaugler.com" {gary-at-gaugler.com} , 31, 40 -- "microscopy-at-microscopy.com" 31, 40 -- {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 31, 40 -- Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 20:05:27 -0600 31, 40 -- Subject: RE: [Microscopy] Re: EM imaging: Self-censorship? 31, 40 -- Thread-Topic: [Microscopy] Re: EM imaging: Self-censorship? 31, 40 -- Thread-Index: AcqSYQGiujCyDI8DQTCNNt47NA7sZAAALyAw 31, 40 -- Message-ID: {616B99DC91A1D64A9BC81BA4326586DF07E5D0EF11-at-UM-EMAIL05.um.umsystem.edu} 31, 40 -- References: {201001110154.o0B1sP7Z016609-at-ns.microscopy.com} 31, 40 -- In-Reply-To: {201001110154.o0B1sP7Z016609-at-ns.microscopy.com} 31, 40 -- Accept-Language: en-US 31, 40 -- Content-Language: en-US 31, 40 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: 31, 40 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 31, 40 -- x-cr-hashedpuzzle: Cpf/ FzPE GUNZ IA/Q Jzrl KuGs L5cL NBjw NX2a P1bJ SNt9 31, 40 -- UiOk VW9s V6Lq WFIA 31, 40 -- WG4U;2;ZwBhAHIAeQBAAGcAYQB1AGcAbABlAHIALgBjAG8AbQA7AG0AaQBjAHIAbwBzAGMAbwBwAHkAQABtAGkAYwByAG8AcwBjAG8AcAB5AC4AYwBvAG0A;Sosha1_v1;7;{84435AAE-5FDD-4DD8-8B13-FBE2CADA293C};cABoAGkAbABsAGkAcABzAHQAQABtAGkAcwBzAG8AdQByAGkALgBlAGQAdQA=;Mon, 31, 40 -- 11 Jan 2010 02:05:27 31, 40 -- GMT;UgBFADoAIABbAE0AaQBjAHIAbwBzAGMAbwBwAHkAXQAgAFIAZQA6ACAAIABFAE0AIABpAG0AYQBnAGkAbgBnADoAIABTAGUAbABmAC0AYwBlAG4AcwBvAHIAcwBoAGkAcAA/AA== 31, 40 -- x-cr-puzzleid: {84435AAE-5FDD-4DD8-8B13-FBE2CADA293C} 31, 40 -- acceptlanguage: en-US 31, 40 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 31, 40 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 31, 40 -- X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Jan 2010 02:05:33.0866 (UTC) FILETIME=[8F1838A0:01CA9262] 31, 40 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 31, 40 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0B25YTr030322 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
Please do tell what is the circular logic about this. I would like to understand your view(s) on this.
I agree that you nor anyone can transfer a copyright that they do not own.
As far as copyrights are concerned, science is not in the "picture."
If you care to, read the law. Here is a good place to start:
http://www.copyright.gov/
In your situation, the issue is perhaps arcane if not moot. For others, it is a big financial issue. It is not an all-consuming issue for me but more of a CYA. Fortunately, if I can say so that being a pain to deal with this, on just a few disturbing occasions it has paid off. My goal is not to make money from infringements but rather to protect my IP for legal licensing.
gary g.
At 06:06 PM 1/10/2010, you wrote:
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==============================Original Headers============================== 13, 20 -- From gary-at-gaugler.com Sun Jan 10 20:22:38 2010 13, 20 -- Received: from smtp1.mc.surewest.net (qsmtp.mc.surewest.net [66.60.130.145]) 13, 20 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with SMTP id o0B2Mc1F012759 13, 20 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Sun, 10 Jan 2010 20:22:38 -0600 13, 20 -- Message-Id: {201001110222.o0B2Mc1F012759-at-ns.microscopy.com} 13, 20 -- Received: (qmail 2762 invoked from network); 10 Jan 2010 19:08:01 -0800 13, 20 -- Received: by simscan 1.1.0 ppid: 2759, pid: 2760, t: 0.4283s 13, 20 -- scanners: regex: 1.1.0 attach: 1.1.0 13, 20 -- Received: from unknown (HELO thor.gaugler.com) (66.60.171.211) 13, 20 -- by smtp1 with SMTP; 10 Jan 2010 19:08:01 -0800 13, 20 -- X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 13, 20 -- Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 18:21:56 -0800 13, 20 -- To: PhillipsT-at-missouri.edu 13, 20 -- From: Gary Gaugler {gary-at-gaugler.com} 13, 20 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] EM imaging: Self-censorship? 13, 20 -- Cc: MSA listserver {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 13, 20 -- In-Reply-To: {201001110206.o0B26bSk032552-at-ns.microscopy.com} 13, 20 -- References: {201001110206.o0B26bSk032552-at-ns.microscopy.com} 13, 20 -- Mime-Version: 1.0 13, 20 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed ==============================End of - Headers==============================
On thinking about this, if the university, government or company was astute, they would have required the employee being highered to automatically assign their native copyright(s) to the higher authority. In this case, the personal ownership of the copyright is moot.
Please do tell what is the circular logic about this. I would like to understand your view(s) on this.
I agree that you nor anyone can transfer a copyright that they do not own.
As far as copyrights are concerned, science is not in the "picture."
If you care to, read the law. Here is a good place to start:
http://www.copyright.gov/
In your situation, the issue is perhaps arcane if not moot. For others, it is a big financial issue. It is not an all-consuming issue for me but more of a CYA. Fortunately, if I can say so that being a pain to deal with this, on just a few disturbing occasions it has paid off. My goal is not to make money from infringements but rather to protect my IP for legal licensing.
gary g.
At 06:06 PM 1/10/2010, you wrote:
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==============================Original Headers============================== 17, 18 -- From gary-at-gaugler.com Sun Jan 10 20:29:18 2010 17, 18 -- Received: from smtp2.mc.surewest.net (qsmtp.mc.surewest.net [66.60.130.145]) 17, 18 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with SMTP id o0B2THgf025511 17, 18 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Sun, 10 Jan 2010 20:29:18 -0600 17, 18 -- Message-Id: {201001110229.o0B2THgf025511-at-ns.microscopy.com} 17, 18 -- Received: (qmail 14243 invoked from network); 10 Jan 2010 18:03:57 -0800 17, 18 -- Received: by simscan 1.1.0 ppid: 14240, pid: 14241, t: 0.4561s 17, 18 -- scanners: regex: 1.1.0 attach: 1.1.0 17, 18 -- Received: from unknown (HELO thor.gaugler.com) (66.60.171.211) 17, 18 -- by smtp2 with SMTP; 10 Jan 2010 18:03:57 -0800 17, 18 -- X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 17, 18 -- Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 18:29:17 -0800 17, 18 -- To: PhillipsT-at-missouri.edu 17, 18 -- From: Gary Gaugler {gary-at-gaugler.com} 17, 18 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] EM imaging: Self-censorship? 17, 18 -- Cc: MSA listserver {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 17, 18 -- Mime-Version: 1.0 17, 18 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed ==============================End of - Headers==============================
-----Original Message----- X-from: Vince Crist [mailto:bvcrist-at-xpsdata.com] Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 8:33 PM To: Phillips, Thomas E.
Interesting conversation. With the disclaimer, I'm not a lawyer nor do I play one on television, I wanted to mention that every company I worked for required me to sign a document that any image or idea, even if developed at home on my time, was company property. There were mechanism in place to obtain ownership of ideas and images they did not want.
This discussion reminds me of the ones I use to read in the photo magazines back in the darkroom days. Both professional and semi-professional were worried about image theft. Anyone could copyright an image. It just took money and a little time, both were in short supply. One solution was to copyright a contact proof sheet which contained 36 small images.
In industry, I'm not interested in the financial aspect of images or who gets credit. I'm more interested in misuse of "my" image and connection to me and the company I work for. I worked with a person who presented images in support of a theory on the incorporation of carbon black in stock. The images were from another microscopist in the group. I couldn't see it in the images and neither could anyone else except the presenter. The later discredited work reflected badly on the microscopy group and of course on the microscopist who had no control over the use of the images.
Frank
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==============================Original Headers============================== 7, 22 -- From frank_karl-at-lincolnelectric.com Mon Jan 11 06:09:49 2010 7, 22 -- Received: from lincolnelectric.com (smtp2.lincolnelectric.com [64.109.211.115]) 7, 22 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0BC9nCu007114 7, 22 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 06:09:49 -0600 7, 22 -- In-Reply-To: {201001110340.o0B3eEnW022748-at-ns.microscopy.com} 7, 22 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] FW: EM imaging: Self-censorship? 7, 22 -- To: Microscopy-at-microscopy.com 7, 22 -- X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.5 November 30, 2005 7, 22 -- Message-ID: {OFF4E94938.B59B611B-ON852576A8.0040F763-852576A8.0042D53D-at-lincolnelectric.com} 7, 22 -- Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 07:09:49 -0500 7, 22 -- From: Frank_Karl-at-lincolnelectric.com 7, 22 -- X-MIMETrack: CD-MIME by Router on Notescom1/Lincoln Electric/US(Release 8.0.1|February 7, 22 -- 07, 2008) at 01/11/2010 07:09:45 AM, 7, 22 -- CD-MIME complete at 01/11/2010 07:09:45 AM, 7, 22 -- Itemize by Router on Notescom1/Lincoln Electric/US(Release 8.0.1|February 7, 22 -- 07, 2008) at 01/11/2010 07:09:45 AM, 7, 22 -- Serialize by Router on Notescom1/Lincoln Electric/US(Release 8.0.1|February 7, 22 -- 07, 2008) at 01/11/2010 07:09:45 AM, 7, 22 -- Serialize complete at 01/11/2010 07:09:45 AM 7, 22 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 7, 22 -- Content-Type: text/plain; 7, 22 -- charset="US-ASCII" ==============================End of - Headers==============================
Which pretty much brings us back to my original question, methinks.
Randy
-----Original Message----- X-from: Frank_Karl-at-lincolnelectric.com [mailto:Frank_Karl-at-lincolnelectric.com] Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 6:11 AM To: Tindall, Randy D.
Interesting conversation. With the disclaimer, I'm not a lawyer nor do I play one on television, I wanted to mention that every company I worked for required me to sign a document that any image or idea, even if developed at home on my time, was company property. There were mechanism in place to obtain ownership of ideas and images they did not want.
This discussion reminds me of the ones I use to read in the photo magazines back in the darkroom days. Both professional and semi-professional were worried about image theft. Anyone could copyright an image. It just took money and a little time, both were in short supply. One solution was to copyright a contact proof sheet which contained 36 small images.
In industry, I'm not interested in the financial aspect of images or who gets credit. I'm more interested in misuse of "my" image and connection to me and the company I work for. I worked with a person who presented images in support of a theory on the incorporation of carbon black in stock. The images were from another microscopist in the group. I couldn't see it in the images and neither could anyone else except the presenter. The later discredited work reflected badly on the microscopy group and of course on the microscopist who had no control over the use of the images.
Frank
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==============================Original Headers============================== 7, 22 -- From frank_karl-at-lincolnelectric.com Mon Jan 11 06:09:49 2010 7, 22 -- Received: from lincolnelectric.com (smtp2.lincolnelectric.com [64.109.211.115]) 7, 22 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0BC9nCu007114 7, 22 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 06:09:49 -0600 7, 22 -- In-Reply-To: {201001110340.o0B3eEnW022748-at-ns.microscopy.com} 7, 22 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] FW: EM imaging: Self-censorship? 7, 22 -- To: Microscopy-at-microscopy.com 7, 22 -- X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.5 November 30, 2005 7, 22 -- Message-ID: {OFF4E94938.B59B611B-ON852576A8.0040F763-852576A8.0042D53D-at-lincolnelectric.com} 7, 22 -- Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 07:09:49 -0500 7, 22 -- From: Frank_Karl-at-lincolnelectric.com 7, 22 -- X-MIMETrack: CD-MIME by Router on Notescom1/Lincoln Electric/US(Release 8.0.1|February 7, 22 -- 07, 2008) at 01/11/2010 07:09:45 AM, 7, 22 -- CD-MIME complete at 01/11/2010 07:09:45 AM, 7, 22 -- Itemize by Router on Notescom1/Lincoln Electric/US(Release 8.0.1|February 7, 22 -- 07, 2008) at 01/11/2010 07:09:45 AM, 7, 22 -- Serialize by Router on Notescom1/Lincoln Electric/US(Release 8.0.1|February 7, 22 -- 07, 2008) at 01/11/2010 07:09:45 AM, 7, 22 -- Serialize complete at 01/11/2010 07:09:45 AM 7, 22 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 7, 22 -- Content-Type: text/plain; 7, 22 -- charset="US-ASCII" ==============================End of - Headers==============================
==============================Original Headers============================== 15, 33 -- From TindallR-at-missouri.edu Mon Jan 11 08:45:42 2010 15, 33 -- Received: from mxnip01-missouri-out.um.umsystem.edu (mxnip01-missouri-out.um.umsystem.edu [209.106.229.53]) 15, 33 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0BEjgOZ027581 15, 33 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 08:45:42 -0600 15, 33 -- X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true 15, 33 -- X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AtYEALPISkvRauUo/2dsb2JhbACcS7BWhEWFNIQvBA 15, 33 -- Received: from unknown (HELO um-tsmtpout1.um.umsystem.edu) ([209.106.229.40]) 15, 33 -- by mxnip01-mizzou-out.um.umsystem.edu with ESMTP; 11 Jan 2010 08:45:42 -0600 15, 33 -- Received: from UM-THUB01.um.umsystem.edu ([209.106.230.181]) by um-tsmtpout1.um.umsystem.edu with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); 15, 33 -- Mon, 11 Jan 2010 08:45:41 -0600 15, 33 -- Received: from um-email06.um.umsystem.edu ([169.254.1.71]) by 15, 33 -- UM-THUB01.um.umsystem.edu ([209.106.230.181]) with mapi; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 15, 33 -- 08:45:41 -0600 15, 33 -- From: "Tindall, Randy D." {TindallR-at-missouri.edu} 15, 33 -- To: "Frank_Karl-at-lincolnelectric.com" {Frank_Karl-at-lincolnelectric.com} 15, 33 -- CC: "microscopy-at-microscopy.com" {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 15, 33 -- Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 08:45:42 -0600 15, 33 -- Subject: RE: [Microscopy] Re: FW: EM imaging: Self-censorship? 15, 33 -- Thread-Topic: [Microscopy] Re: FW: EM imaging: Self-censorship? 15, 33 -- Thread-Index: AcqStykWfKGRNotAQYOcm3mKYKrjPwAFYbqw 15, 33 -- Message-ID: {9422E68616A7C648A281C0B5CD22A4B8224C465AB9-at-UM-EMAIL06.um.umsystem.edu} 15, 33 -- References: {201001111211.o0BCB8K0008634-at-ns.microscopy.com} 15, 33 -- In-Reply-To: {201001111211.o0BCB8K0008634-at-ns.microscopy.com} 15, 33 -- Accept-Language: en-US 15, 33 -- Content-Language: en-US 15, 33 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: 15, 33 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 15, 33 -- acceptlanguage: en-US 15, 33 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 15, 33 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 15, 33 -- X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Jan 2010 14:45:41.0923 (UTC) FILETIME=[BF9D6F30:01CA92CC] 15, 33 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 15, 33 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0BEjgOZ027581 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
I agree Dr Phillip's point that photographing an image isn't sufficient to claim a right to authorship and it shouldn't be enough to claim "ownership" of the interpretation. ICMJE criteria you mentioned are basic rules for those who involved in the project. Post-doctoral fellow of the concern project ( should be first Author) and PI ( Co author) are the main authority in making decision because post-doc is the one who starts project from the scratch, does literature search, make changes and presents every week under supervision of principle investigator. Any addition or subtraction is part of ongoing scientific process. Acknowledgment is another way to put the name for someone who can provide support but cannot claim it. According to ICMJE, criteria for acknowledgement is,
"All contributors who do not meet the criteria for authorship should be listed in an acknowledgments section. Examples of those who might be acknowledged include a person who provided purely technical help, writing assistance, or a department chair who provided only general support. Editors should ask corresponding authors to declare whether they had assistance with study design, data collection, data analysis, or manuscript preparation. If such assistance was available, the authors should disclose the identity of the individuals who provided this assistance and the entity that supported it in the published article. Financial and material support should also be acknowledged.
Groups of persons who have contributed materially to the paper but whose contributions do not justify authorship may be listed under such headings as "clinical investigators" or "participating investigators," and their function or contribution should be described-for example, "served as scientific advisors," "critically reviewed the study proposal," "collected data," or "provided and cared for study patients." Because readers may infer their endorsement of the data and conclusions, these persons must give written permission to be acknowledged".
I think ownership of picture or material is purely Post-doc and Principle investigator property. Any additional change during study comes under acknowledgement who can not claim for ownership for any picture or any material used for study.
Any image published in a journal is copyrighted and in almost all cases that copyright belongs to the journal. One generally has to sign away the copyright when submitting a paper for publication.
But one doesn't have to publish or register a work for it to be copyrighted. Creation of the work is enough.
I am not sure I buy your argument that the copyright belongs to the microscopist who took the image. I am not a lawyer but currently sitting on a committee re-writing our University's intellectual property rules. The lawyer on the committee recently stated that all who contribute to the creation of a work have equal rights. So if anyone in a lab prepared the tissue, fixed, embedded, sectioned, etc. they might have some claim. On the other hand, standard practice is the Principal Investigator "owns" the data in the sense he or she is responsible for maintaining it - others have additional rights and responsibilities but typical lab policy is that original data, whether it is photographic, gels, Western/Northern/Southern blots, or lab notebooks would remain in the laboratory where they were created. My students and technicians are not allowed to take the original copies of notebooks out of the lab but have the opportunity to take copies of all their work. My guess is that is a!
core technician claimed "ownership" rights to an image done on a strict for fee basis, they might have some rights but would be looking for a new job. The International Committee of Medical Journal Editorships (http://www.icmje.org/ethical_1author.html) states that "Authorship credit should be based on 1) substantial contributions to conception and design, acquisition of data, or analysis and interpretation of data; 2) drafting the article or revising it critically for important intellectual content; and 3) final approval of the version to be published. Authors should meet conditions 1, 2, and 3." Simply photographing an image isn't sufficient to claim a right to authorship and it shouldn't be enough to claim "ownership" of the interpretation.
I am looking for a little more economic way of taking care of our FEI Tecnai 12. While I would be very hesitant to take our instrument off the service contract completely, maybe I do not have pay k$20 a year either. I am in Philadelphia area, any tips (on- or off-list) appreciated.
Thanks, Michal
--
Michal Jarnik, Ph.D. Fox Chase Cancer Center Philadelphia, PA
==============================Original Headers============================== 6, 17 -- From Michal.Jarnik-at-fccc.edu Mon Jan 11 14:54:01 2010 6, 17 -- Received: from azah.fccc.edu (azah.fccc.edu [131.249.4.237]) 6, 17 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0BKs1RK016486 6, 17 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 14:54:01 -0600 6, 17 -- Received: from emf1.dyn.fccc.edu (emf1.dyn.fccc.edu [10.40.12.156]) 6, 17 -- (authenticated bits=0) 6, 17 -- by azah.fccc.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o0BKrxIr005640 6, 17 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 15:53:59 -0500 (EST) 6, 17 -- Message-ID: {4B4B8FE6.8030303-at-fccc.edu} 6, 17 -- Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 15:53:58 -0500 6, 17 -- From: Michal Jarnik {Michal.Jarnik-at-fccc.edu} 6, 17 -- User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) 6, 17 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 6, 17 -- To: microscopy-at-microscopy.com 6, 17 -- Subject: Third party service contracts 6, 17 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed 6, 17 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ==============================End of - Headers==============================
I have no experience with third party service providers, although I know some people have been very happy with them. My purpose in replying is to caution you against going with "insurance company" service contracts. Bad news, IMHO. These involve a company that manages your service contracts and removes you a step from your service provider. They may cost less, but how much is not getting a permanent migraine worth?
I strongly suggest that you deal directly with whomever does your actual service----OEM or 3rd party.
Good luck, Randy
Electron Microscopy Core Staff W125 Veterinary Medicine University of Missouri Columbia, MO 65211 Tel: (573) 882-8304 / 4777 Fax: (573) 884-2227 Email: tindallr-at-missouri.edu Web: http://www.emc.missouri.edu On-line calendar: http://biotech.rnet.missouri.edu/cgi-bin/Calcium310.pl?Op=Splash&Amount=Week&NavType=Both&Type=TimePlan
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-----Original Message----- X-from: Michal.Jarnik-at-fccc.edu [mailto:Michal.Jarnik-at-fccc.edu] Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 2:55 PM To: Tindall, Randy D.
Hi List,
I am looking for a little more economic way of taking care of our FEI Tecnai 12. While I would be very hesitant to take our instrument off the service contract completely, maybe I do not have pay k$20 a year either. I am in Philadelphia area, any tips (on- or off-list) appreciated.
Thanks, Michal
--
Michal Jarnik, Ph.D. Fox Chase Cancer Center Philadelphia, PA
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==============================Original Headers============================== 22, 33 -- From TindallR-at-missouri.edu Mon Jan 11 16:06:02 2010 22, 33 -- Received: from mxtip01-umsystem-out.um.umsystem.edu (mxtip01-umsystem-out.um.umsystem.edu [209.106.229.49]) 22, 33 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0BM61RP008658 22, 33 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 16:06:01 -0600 22, 33 -- X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true 22, 33 -- X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AtQEANgvS0vRauUp/2dsb2JhbACcQK9KAQmEeIYHgkaBaQSNMw 22, 33 -- Received: from unknown (HELO um-nsmtpout1.um.umsystem.edu) ([209.106.229.41]) 22, 33 -- by mxtip01-missouri-out.um.umsystem.edu with ESMTP; 11 Jan 2010 16:06:01 -0600 22, 33 -- Received: from UM-THUB01.um.umsystem.edu ([209.106.230.181]) by um-nsmtpout1.um.umsystem.edu with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); 22, 33 -- Mon, 11 Jan 2010 16:06:01 -0600 22, 33 -- Received: from um-email06.um.umsystem.edu ([169.254.1.71]) by 22, 33 -- UM-THUB01.um.umsystem.edu ([209.106.230.181]) with mapi; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 22, 33 -- 16:06:00 -0600 22, 33 -- From: "Tindall, Randy D." {TindallR-at-missouri.edu} 22, 33 -- To: "Michal.Jarnik-at-fccc.edu" {Michal.Jarnik-at-fccc.edu} 22, 33 -- CC: "microscopy-at-microscopy.com" {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 22, 33 -- Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 16:05:57 -0600 22, 33 -- Subject: RE: [Microscopy] Third party service contracts 22, 33 -- Thread-Topic: [Microscopy] Third party service contracts 22, 33 -- Thread-Index: AcqTAFM1Ty9CUtUAT92FINquk1KMMQACX47Q 22, 33 -- Message-ID: {9422E68616A7C648A281C0B5CD22A4B8224C80BFCA-at-UM-EMAIL06.um.umsystem.edu} 22, 33 -- References: {201001112054.o0BKsnc9018090-at-ns.microscopy.com} 22, 33 -- In-Reply-To: {201001112054.o0BKsnc9018090-at-ns.microscopy.com} 22, 33 -- Accept-Language: en-US 22, 33 -- Content-Language: en-US 22, 33 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: 22, 33 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 22, 33 -- acceptlanguage: en-US 22, 33 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 22, 33 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 22, 33 -- X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Jan 2010 22:06:01.0199 (UTC) FILETIME=[42BB07F0:01CA930A] 22, 33 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 22, 33 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0BM61RP008658 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
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Email: jsilvey-at-tegal.com Name: Judy Silvey
Organization: Tegal Corp.
Title-Subject: [Filtered] Epoxy
Message: Epoxy fill material alternatives sought
I am trying to characterize the deposition of polymer layers on the sidewalls of deep trenches in silicon. The polymer layers are soft and require polishing to capture the thickness and coverage of the deep trenches. I have been using acrylic-based epoxies to fill the trenches prior to polishing but these acrylic materials tend to deform during the polishing process and subsequent exposure to the beam of electrons in the SEM.
I am looking for an epoxy or other fill material that will not deform when exposed to the polishing process or the SEM, and that does not require a high temperature anneal to cure. A room temperature-curable material is preferred if the cure time is less than ~24hrs. I suspect that a material that has a hardness similar to that of the surrounding silicon such a silicon dioxide or alumina-based epoxy is best but this has not been proven (in contrast to the acrylic epoxies that appear to be much softer.) I have considered using a spin-on-glass but the reported cure temperatures are too high, although a low temperature cure for an extended period might in theory work. (has anyone tried this?)
Any ideas on good candidates for alternatives to the acrylic epoxies for filling deep trenches (~50um) in silicon that will tolerate the polishing process and the SEM exposure?
Judy: I like EpoxyBond 110 from Allied High Tech. It's two-part, low-viscosity, heat-cure epoxy that I use routinely in semiconductor work. I use when I prepare samples using the glass cover slip technique, although I suppose one could spin it on if needed. I usually cure for 10 minutes at 120ºC but you can cure as low as 100ºC. M-Bond 600 can also be used but it's not my favorite. There are also the Buehler/Struers/Allied High Tech cold-setting encapsulating epoxies. (I'm sure there are other vendors; these happen to be the ones I use.) These epoxies are much harder than acrylics. There only drawback for small sample sizes is their cure rate is dependent on the mass of the epoxy; i.e., the less the epoxy mass, the longer the cure time.
On 1/11/10 5:46 PM, jsilvey-at-tegal.com wrote: } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of America } To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver } On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } This Question/Comment was submitted to the Microscopy Listserver } using the WWW based Form at http://microscopy.com/MLFormMail.html } --------------------------------------------------------------------------- } Remember this posting is most likely not from a Subscriber, so when replying } please copy both jsilvey-at-tegal.com as well as the MIcroscopy Listserver } --------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } Email: jsilvey-at-tegal.com } Name: Judy Silvey } } Organization: Tegal Corp. } } Title-Subject: [Filtered] Epoxy } } Message: Epoxy fill material alternatives sought } } } } I am trying to characterize the deposition of polymer layers on the } sidewalls of deep trenches in silicon. The polymer layers are soft } and require polishing to capture the thickness and coverage of the } deep trenches. I have been using acrylic-based epoxies to fill the } trenches prior to polishing but these acrylic materials tend to } deform during the polishing process and subsequent exposure to the } beam of electrons in the SEM. } } } } I am looking for an epoxy or other fill material that will not deform } when exposed to the polishing process or the SEM, and that does not } require a high temperature anneal to cure. A room } temperature-curable material is preferred if the cure time is less } than ~24hrs. I suspect that a material that has a hardness similar } to that of the surrounding silicon such a silicon dioxide or } alumina-based epoxy is best but this has not been proven (in contrast } to the acrylic epoxies that appear to be much softer.) I have } considered using a spin-on-glass but the reported cure temperatures } are too high, although a low temperature cure for an extended period } might in theory work. (has anyone tried this?) } } } } Any ideas on good candidates for alternatives to the acrylic epoxies } for filling deep trenches (~50um) in silicon that will tolerate the } polishing process and the SEM exposure? } } } } } Login Host: 72.245.193.146 } --------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } ==============================Original Headers============================== } 18, 11 -- From zaluzec-at-microscopy.com Mon Jan 11 17:46:07 2010 } 18, 11 -- Received: from [206.69.208.22] (mac22.zaluzec.com [206.69.208.22]) } 18, 11 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0BNk5MQ027148 } 18, 11 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 17:46:06 -0600 } 18, 11 -- Mime-Version: 1.0 } 18, 11 -- Message-Id: {p06240807c771689bac73-at-[206.69.208.22]} } 18, 11 -- Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 17:46:04 -0600 } 18, 11 -- To: microscopy-at-microscopy.com } 18, 11 -- From: jsilvey-at-tegal.com (by way of MicroscopyListserver) } 18, 11 -- Subject: viaWWW: Epoxy fill material alternatives sought } 18, 11 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" } ==============================End of - Headers============================== } }
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Can you mix either a fine metal or ceramic powder in with your epoxy to help it hold up better? A metal filling may also help with charge buildup. Sub-micron powder should be able to flow into the trenches.
Henk
jsilvey-at-tegal.com wrote: } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of America } To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver } On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } This Question/Comment was submitted to the Microscopy Listserver } using the WWW based Form at http://microscopy.com/MLFormMail.html } --------------------------------------------------------------------------- } Remember this posting is most likely not from a Subscriber, so when replying } please copy both jsilvey-at-tegal.com as well as the MIcroscopy Listserver } --------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } Email: jsilvey-at-tegal.com } Name: Judy Silvey } } Organization: Tegal Corp. } } Title-Subject: [Filtered] Epoxy } } Message: Epoxy fill material alternatives sought } } } } I am trying to characterize the deposition of polymer layers on the } sidewalls of deep trenches in silicon. The polymer layers are soft } and require polishing to capture the thickness and coverage of the } deep trenches. I have been using acrylic-based epoxies to fill the } trenches prior to polishing but these acrylic materials tend to } deform during the polishing process and subsequent exposure to the } beam of electrons in the SEM. } } } } I am looking for an epoxy or other fill material that will not deform } when exposed to the polishing process or the SEM, and that does not } require a high temperature anneal to cure. A room } temperature-curable material is preferred if the cure time is less } than ~24hrs. I suspect that a material that has a hardness similar } to that of the surrounding silicon such a silicon dioxide or } alumina-based epoxy is best but this has not been proven (in contrast } to the acrylic epoxies that appear to be much softer.) I have } considered using a spin-on-glass but the reported cure temperatures } are too high, although a low temperature cure for an extended period } might in theory work. (has anyone tried this?) } } } } Any ideas on good candidates for alternatives to the acrylic epoxies } for filling deep trenches (~50um) in silicon that will tolerate the } polishing process and the SEM exposure? } } } } } Login Host: 72.245.193.146 } --------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } ==============================Original Headers============================== } 18, 11 -- From zaluzec-at-microscopy.com Mon Jan 11 17:46:07 2010 } 18, 11 -- Received: from [206.69.208.22] (mac22.zaluzec.com [206.69.208.22]) } 18, 11 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0BNk5MQ027148 } 18, 11 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 17:46:06 -0600 } 18, 11 -- Mime-Version: 1.0 } 18, 11 -- Message-Id: {p06240807c771689bac73-at-[206.69.208.22]} } 18, 11 -- Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 17:46:04 -0600 } 18, 11 -- To: microscopy-at-microscopy.com } 18, 11 -- From: jsilvey-at-tegal.com (by way of MicroscopyListserver) } 18, 11 -- Subject: viaWWW: Epoxy fill material alternatives sought } 18, 11 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" } ==============================End of - Headers============================== } }
-- Hendrik O. Colijn www.ceof.ohio-state.edu OSU Campus Electron Optics Facility colijn.1-at-osu.edu 040 Fontana Labs (614) 292-0674 (V) 116 W. 19th Ave. (614) 292-7523 (F) Columbus, OH 43210
"Time is that quality of nature which keeps things from happening all at once. Lately it doesn't seem to be working."
==============================Original Headers============================== 6, 26 -- From colijn.1-at-osu.edu Mon Jan 11 20:44:57 2010 6, 26 -- Received: from ER6S1.ECR6.OHIO-STATE.EDU (er6s1.ecr6.ohio-state.edu [164.107.76.2]) 6, 26 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0C2iui7029871 6, 26 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 20:44:57 -0600 6, 26 -- Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.er6s1.ecr6.ohio-state.edu by 6, 26 -- er6s1.ecr6.ohio-state.edu (PMDF V6.3-x18 #31556) 6, 26 -- id {01NICJX0FM8W96U4HE-at-ecr6.ohio-state.edu} for microscopy-at-microscopy.com; 6, 26 -- Mon, 11 Jan 2010 21:44:55 -0500 (EST) 6, 26 -- Received: from [192.168.1.102] 6, 26 -- (d118-75-116-26.try.wideopenwest.com [75.118.26.116]) 6, 26 -- by er6s1.ecr6.ohio-state.edu (PMDF V6.3-x18 #31556) 6, 26 -- with ESMTPA id {01NICJWY9KPG964MET-at-ecr6.ohio-state.edu} ; Mon, 6, 26 -- 11 Jan 2010 21:44:51 -0500 (EST) 6, 26 -- Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 21:44:50 -0500 6, 26 -- From: "Hendrik O. Colijn" {colijn.1-at-osu.edu} 6, 26 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] viaWWW: Epoxy fill material alternatives sought 6, 26 -- In-reply-to: {201001112347.o0BNlWVk029230-at-ns.microscopy.com} 6, 26 -- Sender: colijn-at-er6s1.ecr6.ohio-state.edu 6, 26 -- To: jsilvey-at-tegal.com, microscopy-at-microscopy.com 6, 26 -- Message-id: {4B4BE222.9050703-at-osu.edu} 6, 26 -- MIME-version: 1.0 6, 26 -- Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed 6, 26 -- Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit 6, 26 -- User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) 6, 26 -- X-Env-From: auth/colijn.1-at-osu.edu 6, 26 -- References: {201001112347.o0BNlWVk029230-at-ns.microscopy.com} ==============================End of - Headers==============================
Couple of weeks ago I have sent an email regarding imaging of cancer cells using SEM (thanx to Philip Oshel for his detailed procedure). I must admit that I have now great respect for those of you going through such arduous procedures for biological sample prep. I think I will cut corners and try VP-SEM as there seems to be less sample prep involved.
I would like to find some general "how-to" and "dos and donts" on imaging biological samples (human cells, tissue, etc) using VP mode (H2O or Dry) on a CZ Evo40 SEM. I will appreciate if some who had experience using VP-SEM can direct me the right way.
Best
Erman Bengu
================================= Erman Bengu
Assistant Professor of Chemistry Department of Chemistry Bilkent University
Mailing Address: Bilkent University, Department of Chemistry, 06800, Bilkent, Ankara Turkey
Standard preparation of the cells including metal coating will give you images that are easier to interpret and at higher magnifications, if required.
Wet cells are difficult to image beyond very low magnification unless you have a field emission ESEM or VP SEM. The surrounding water film has to be carefully removed without dehydrating the cells. They are beam sensitive and easily damaged.
A good paper on wet cell imaging is:
Kirk SE, Skepper JN Donald AM. 2009 Application of environmental scanning electron microscopy to determine surface structure. J Microsc 233:205-244.
Dave
-----Original Message----- X-from: bengu-at-fen.bilkent.edu.tr [mailto:bengu-at-fen.bilkent.edu.tr] Sent: 12 January 2010 07:51 To: David Patton
Dear All,
Couple of weeks ago I have sent an email regarding imaging of cancer cells using SEM (thanx to Philip Oshel for his detailed procedure). I must admit that I have now great respect for those of you going through such arduous procedures for biological sample prep. I think I will cut corners and try VP-SEM as there seems to be less sample prep involved.
I would like to find some general "how-to" and "dos and donts" on imaging biological samples (human cells, tissue, etc) using VP mode (H2O or Dry) on a CZ Evo40 SEM. I will appreciate if some who had experience using VP-SEM can direct me the right way.
Best
Erman Bengu
================================= Erman Bengu
Assistant Professor of Chemistry Department of Chemistry Bilkent University
Mailing Address: Bilkent University, Department of Chemistry, 06800, Bilkent, Ankara Turkey
Stokes DJ, Rea SM, Best SM, Bonfield W. 2003. Electron microscopy of mammalian cells in the absence of fixing, freezing, dehydration, or specimen coating. Scanning 25:181-184.
McKinlay K, Allison FJ, Scotchford C, Grant DM, Oliver JM, King JR, Wood JV, Brown PD. 2004. Comparison of environmental scanning electron microscopy with high vacuum scanning electronmicroscopy as applied to the assessment of cell morphology. J Biomed Mater Res A 69(2):359-366.
I have imaged a fair few cell cultures in a FEG ESEM but always on fixed cells. Buffer salts can cause problems so samples need to be thoroughly washed. It is possible to use lower voltages with the FEG, allowing more cell surface detail to be seen and reducing beam damage. Sample needs to be cooled and kept wet during pumpdown so I always put excess water droplets around the sample. The film of water covering cells needs to be carefully removed and you do not always need to be at 100% RH due to the salts within the cells, but dehydration will occur rapidly if pressure is taken too low. It's a fine balance and you have limited observation time before you are looking at dehydrated cells, however you may well get images of features damaged by conventional prep techniques.
Best of luck Nicola This message has been checked for viruses but the contents of an attachment may still contain software viruses which could damage your computer system: you are advised to perform your own checks. Email communications with the University of Nottingham may be monitored as permitted by UK legislation.
==============================Original Headers============================== 4, 35 -- From Nicola.Weston-at-nottingham.ac.uk Tue Jan 12 06:57:42 2010 4, 35 -- Received: from ixe-mta-19.emailfiltering.com (ixe-mta-19-tx.emailfiltering.com [194.116.198.150]) 4, 35 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0CCvfTb011485 4, 35 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 06:57:42 -0600 4, 35 -- Received: from smtp2.nottingham.ac.uk ([128.243.44.5]) 4, 35 -- by ixe-mta-19.emailfiltering.com with emfmta (version 4.1.0.193.1.rd-3.2.3-libc2.3.2) vanilla id 822484940 4, 35 -- for microscopy-at-microscopy.com; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 12:57:41 +0000 4, 35 -- Received: from suismtp1.ad.nottingham.ac.uk ([128.243.42.10]) 4, 35 -- by smtp2.nottingham.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.60) 4, 35 -- (envelope-from {Nicola.Weston-at-nottingham.ac.uk} ) 4, 35 -- id 1NUgJP-0003Un-0r 4, 35 -- for microscopy-at-microscopy.com; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 12:57:31 +0000 4, 35 -- Received: from VUIEXCHA.ad.nottingham.ac.uk ([128.243.44.173]) by SUISMTP1.ad.nottingham.ac.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); 4, 35 -- Tue, 12 Jan 2010 12:52:51 +0000 4, 35 -- X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 4, 35 -- Content-class: urn:content-classes:message 4, 35 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 4, 35 -- Content-Type: text/plain; 4, 35 -- charset="us-ascii" 4, 35 -- Subject: [Microscopy] RE: VP SEM for imaging biological samples 4, 35 -- Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 12:52:50 -0000 4, 35 -- Message-ID: {1E0CCC81FDE82D4C8DDE1A8F44080D940348D263-at-VUIEXCHA.ad.nottingham.ac.uk} 4, 35 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: 4, 35 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 4, 35 -- Thread-Topic: [Microscopy] RE: VP SEM for imaging biological samples 4, 35 -- Thread-Index: AcqThiXsXBdjmdaVRZWxCMejRnoGzg== 4, 35 -- From: Nicola Weston {Nicola.Weston-at-nottingham.ac.uk} 4, 35 -- To: {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 4, 35 -- X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Jan 2010 12:52:51.0132 (UTC) FILETIME=[265277C0:01CA9386] 4, 35 -- X-UoN-MailScanner-Information: Please contact staff-it-helpline-at-nottingham.ac.uk for more information 4, 35 -- X-UoN-MailScanner: Not scanned: please contact your Internet E-Mail Service Provider for details 4, 35 -- X-UoN-MailScanner-From: nicola.weston-at-nottingham.ac.uk 4, 35 -- X-Spam-Status: No 4, 35 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 4, 35 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0CCvfTb011485 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
I'm not quite clear on your sample. It sounds like you have trenches in silicon that are covered with a polymer that you want to then cover/fill with epoxy. Is that right?
I agree with the others that a two-part epoxy is probably more robust than the acrylics. Without knowing your polishing process, I think you would find many epoxies will stand up to polishing. Edge retention will be an issue, but the epoxy will probably be harder than your polymer.
I don't know how well fillers would work with the epoxy. I would be a bit afraid that the filler would increase the viscosity and prevent the trench from being well filled. On the other hand, the filler could provide contrast so that you can differentiate the epoxy from the polymer.
Contrast between the epoxy and polymer will be an issue. The different hardness should give polishing relief (sort of an etching) so that you can distinguish the two phases. Otherwise, the polymer and epoxy may appear to be one, continuous phase. If your polymer does not have an additional element, you may need to dope the epoxy so that you have some contrast between the phases.
Warren S.
-----Original Message----- X-from: colijn.1-at-osu.edu [mailto:colijn.1-at-osu.edu] Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 8:45 PM To: wesaia-at-iastate.edu
-- Judy, A UV cure material might be worth considering. Dymax and I sort of recall Lord Chemical have those, among others. UV cure is even used for wood floor finishes, so there ought to be something hard enough.
Rob Bowen
Robert C. Bowen Research Scientist Caddock Electronics, Inc rob.bowen-at-caddock.com http://www.caddock.com
} From: {jsilvey-at-tegal.com} } Reply-To: {jsilvey-at-tegal.com} } Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 17:48:52 -0600 } To: {rob.bowen-at-caddock.com} } Subject: [Microscopy] viaWWW: Epoxy fill material alternatives sought } } } } } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of America } To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver } On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } This Question/Comment was submitted to the Microscopy Listserver } using the WWW based Form at http://microscopy.com/MLFormMail.html } --------------------------------------------------------------------------- } Remember this posting is most likely not from a Subscriber, so when replying } please copy both jsilvey-at-tegal.com as well as the MIcroscopy Listserver } --------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } Email: jsilvey-at-tegal.com } Name: Judy Silvey } } Organization: Tegal Corp. } } Title-Subject: [Filtered] Epoxy } } Message: Epoxy fill material alternatives sought } } } } I am trying to characterize the deposition of polymer layers on the } sidewalls of deep trenches in silicon. The polymer layers are soft } and require polishing to capture the thickness and coverage of the } deep trenches. I have been using acrylic-based epoxies to fill the } trenches prior to polishing but these acrylic materials tend to } deform during the polishing process and subsequent exposure to the } beam of electrons in the SEM. } } } } I am looking for an epoxy or other fill material that will not deform } when exposed to the polishing process or the SEM, and that does not } require a high temperature anneal to cure. A room } temperature-curable material is preferred if the cure time is less } than ~24hrs. I suspect that a material that has a hardness similar } to that of the surrounding silicon such a silicon dioxide or } alumina-based epoxy is best but this has not been proven (in contrast } to the acrylic epoxies that appear to be much softer.) I have } considered using a spin-on-glass but the reported cure temperatures } are too high, although a low temperature cure for an extended period } might in theory work. (has anyone tried this?) } } } } Any ideas on good candidates for alternatives to the acrylic epoxies } for filling deep trenches (~50um) in silicon that will tolerate the } polishing process and the SEM exposure? } } } } } Login Host: 72.245.193.146 } --------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } ==============================Original Headers============================== } 18, 11 -- From zaluzec-at-microscopy.com Mon Jan 11 17:46:07 2010 } 18, 11 -- Received: from [206.69.208.22] (mac22.zaluzec.com [206.69.208.22]) } 18, 11 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id } o0BNk5MQ027148 } 18, 11 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 17:46:06 -0600 } 18, 11 -- Mime-Version: 1.0 } 18, 11 -- Message-Id: {p06240807c771689bac73-at-[206.69.208.22]} } 18, 11 -- Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 17:46:04 -0600 } 18, 11 -- To: microscopy-at-microscopy.com } 18, 11 -- From: jsilvey-at-tegal.com (by way of MicroscopyListserver) } 18, 11 -- Subject: viaWWW: Epoxy fill material alternatives sought } 18, 11 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" } ==============================End of - Headers==============================
==============================Original Headers============================== 8, 21 -- From Rob.Bowen-at-caddock.com Tue Jan 12 09:17:05 2010 8, 21 -- Received: from msg.caddock.com (206-192-252-70.lsnetworks.net [206.192.252.70] (may be forged)) 8, 21 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0CFH4vM005268 8, 21 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 09:17:05 -0600 8, 21 -- Received: from [10.1.2.107] ([10.1.2.107]) 8, 21 -- by msg.caddock.com (IceWarp 9.4.2) with ASMTP id UQC10659; 8, 21 -- Tue, 12 Jan 2010 07:16:59 -0800 8, 21 -- User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.3.3.061214 8, 21 -- Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 07:17:03 -0800 8, 21 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] viaWWW: Epoxy fill material alternatives sought 8, 21 -- From: Rob Bowen {Rob.Bowen-at-caddock.com} 8, 21 -- To: {jsilvey-at-tegal.com} 8, 21 -- CC: {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 8, 21 -- Message-ID: {C771D26F.C559%Rob.Bowen-at-caddock.com} 8, 21 -- Thread-Topic: [Microscopy] viaWWW: Epoxy fill material alternatives sought 8, 21 -- Thread-Index: AcqTmks8ibxVkv+NEd6y0gARJDSgFA== 8, 21 -- In-Reply-To: {201001112348.o0BNmqMZ031516-at-ns.microscopy.com} 8, 21 -- Mime-version: 1.0 8, 21 -- Content-type: text/plain; 8, 21 -- charset="US-ASCII" 8, 21 -- Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit ==============================End of - Headers==============================
The PC-11 and PC-7 epoxies that are available in most hardware stores in the U.S. (I don't know where you are located), are both hard enough to drill, file and machine when fully hardened (less than one day). They are also very strong and therefore very useful around the lab. Also, Torr Seal ultra high vacuum epoxy from Gatan (and similar products available from EM supply companies such as SPI) are also quite hard when cured. All cure at room temperature.
-- Wilbur C. Bigelow, Professor Emeritus Materials Sci. & Engr., Univ. of Michigan Ann Arbor, Michigan 48109-2136 e-mail: bigelow-at-umich.edu; Fx:734-763-4788; Ph:734-975-0858 Address mail to: 2911 Whittier Court Ann Arbor, MI 48104-6731
==============================Original Headers============================== 3, 15 -- From bigelow-at-umich.edu Tue Jan 12 11:49:04 2010 3, 15 -- Received: from tombraider.mr.itd.umich.edu (smtp.mail.umich.edu [141.211.93.161]) 3, 15 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0CHn3ts004197 3, 15 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 11:49:03 -0600 3, 15 -- Received: FROM [76.226.25.155] (Unknown [76.226.25.155]) 3, 15 -- By tombraider.mr.itd.umich.edu ID 4B4CB60D.3BA19.16313 ; 3, 15 -- Authuser bigelow; 3, 15 -- 12 Jan 2010 12:49:01 EST 3, 15 -- Mime-Version: 1.0 3, 15 -- Message-Id: {p06240800c7726575f041-at-[76.226.81.150]} 3, 15 -- Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 12:48:53 -0500 3, 15 -- To: Microscopy Listserver {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 3, 15 -- From: Wil Bigelow {bigelow-at-umich.edu} 3, 15 -- Subject: [Microscopy}RE; Hard epoxies 3, 15 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" ==============================End of - Headers==============================
Using dry VP mode for wet cells is useless. The same results (with better quality of pictures) you can get by washing cells, air drying them and coating with sputter coater. But you'll have a lot of artifacts.
You have to fix cells. Even for "wet VP" mode it is better to fix, and in most cases it is the only possible way to observe wet cells. Anyway, wet cells observation is the very tough task. Much (much!) easier is to go with standard procedure, recommended by Philip Oshel.
You can try to simplify the protocol a little: Fix with 2% gluteraldehyde in buffer. Twice wash with water. Dehydrate for 15 min in each of ethanol solutions: 33%, 67%, 95% and twice in 100%. If you have access to Critical point drier, use it. Otherwise replace 100% ethanol with HMDS, and after 10 min pipette HMDS out, leaving just enough to cover your specimen. Let it air dry in the hood. Coat with sputter coater.
May be you can even skip HMDS, and just air dry specimen after ethanol. You will have some artifacts, like cracks in cells and additional shrinkage, but results could be acceptable.
Good luck,
Vladimir
Vladimir M. Dusevich, Ph.D. Electron Microscope Lab Manager 371 School of Dentistry 650 E. 25th Street Kansas City, MO 64108-2784
} -----Original Message----- } From: bengu-at-fen.bilkent.edu.tr [mailto:bengu-at-fen.bilkent.edu.tr] } Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 1:48 AM } To: Dusevich, Vladimir } Subject: [Microscopy] VP SEM for imaging biological samples } } } } } ----------------------------------------------------------------------- } ----- } The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of } America } To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- } http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver } On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html } ----------------------------------------------------------------------- } ----- } } } Dear All, } } Couple of weeks ago I have sent an email regarding imaging of cancer } cells } using SEM (thanx to Philip Oshel for his detailed procedure). I must } admit } that I have now great respect for those of you going through such } arduous } procedures for biological sample prep. I think I will cut corners and } try } VP-SEM as there seems to be less sample prep involved. } } I would like to find some general "how-to" and "dos and donts" on } imaging } biological samples (human cells, tissue, etc) using VP mode (H2O or } Dry) } on a CZ Evo40 SEM. I will appreciate if some who had experience using } VP-SEM can direct me the right way. } } Best } } Erman Bengu } } } } } ================================= } Erman Bengu } } Assistant Professor of Chemistry } Department of Chemistry } Bilkent University } } Mailing Address: } Bilkent University, } Department of Chemistry, } 06800, Bilkent, Ankara } Turkey } } Office: SB #311 } E-mail: bengu_AT_fen.bilkent.edu.tr } Phone (Office): +90 (312) 290-2153 } (Lab1): +90 (312) 290-2663 } (Lab2): +90 (312) 290-3332 } Fax: +90 (312) 266-4068 } Web: http://www.fen.bilkent.edu.tr/~bengu } ================================== } } } } ================================= } Erman Bengu } } Assistant Professor of Chemistry } Department of Chemistry } Bilkent University } } Mailing Address: } Bilkent University, } Department of Chemistry, } 06800, Bilkent, Ankara } Turkey } } Office: SB #311 } E-mail: bengu_AT_fen.bilkent.edu.tr } Phone (Office): +90 (312) 290-2153 } (Lab1): +90 (312) 290-2663 } (Lab2): +90 (312) 290-3332 } Fax: +90 (312) 266-4068 } Web: http://www.fen.bilkent.edu.tr/~bengu } ================================== } } } } } } ==============================Original } Headers============================== } 23, 22 -- From bengu-at-fen.bilkent.edu.tr Tue Jan 12 01:47:07 2010 } 23, 22 -- Received: from ispinoz.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr } (ispinoz.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr [139.179.10.240]) } 23, 22 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP } id o0C7l6Ap004558 } 23, 22 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 01:47:07 } -0600 } 23, 22 -- Received: from newmail.bilkent.edu.tr (unknown } [192.168.10.203]) } 23, 22 -- by ispinoz.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id } B2DB16880 } 23, 22 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 09:47:05 } +0200 (EET) } 23, 22 -- Received: from 139.179.97.107 } 23, 22 -- (SquirrelMail authenticated user } bengu-at-fen.bilkent.edu.tr) } 23, 22 -- by newmail.bilkent.edu.tr with HTTP; } 23, 22 -- Tue, 12 Jan 2010 09:47:22 +0200 (EET) } 23, 22 -- Message-ID: } {48720.139.179.97.107.1263282442.squirrel-at-newmail.bilkent.edu.tr} } 23, 22 -- Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 09:47:22 +0200 (EET) } 23, 22 -- Subject: VP SEM for imaging biological samples } 23, 22 -- From: "Erman Bengu" {bengu-at-fen.bilkent.edu.tr} } 23, 22 -- To: microscopy-at-microscopy.com } 23, 22 -- User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.13 } 23, 22 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 } 23, 22 -- Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-9 } 23, 22 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit } 23, 22 -- X-Priority: 3 (Normal) } 23, 22 -- Importance: Normal } ==============================End of - } Headers==============================
==============================Original Headers============================== 10, 25 -- From DusevichV-at-umkc.edu Tue Jan 12 13:39:32 2010 10, 25 -- Received: from kc-msxproto1.kc.umkc.edu (smtp3.exchange.umkc.edu [134.193.143.167]) 10, 25 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0CJdWjr023959 10, 25 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 13:39:32 -0600 10, 25 -- Received: from KC-MSX1.kc.umkc.edu ([134.193.32.11]) by kc-msxproto1.kc.umkc.edu with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); 10, 25 -- Tue, 12 Jan 2010 13:39:31 -0600 10, 25 -- X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 10, 25 -- Content-class: urn:content-classes:message 10, 25 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 10, 25 -- Content-Type: text/plain; 10, 25 -- charset="us-ascii" 10, 25 -- Subject: RE: [Microscopy] VP SEM for imaging biological samples 10, 25 -- Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 13:39:31 -0600 10, 25 -- Message-ID: {032EC4F75A527A4FA58C5B1B5DECFBB3095F2EB6-at-KC-MSX1.kc.umkc.edu} 10, 25 -- In-Reply-To: {201001120747.o0C7luaO005395-at-ns.microscopy.com} 10, 25 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: 10, 25 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 10, 25 -- Thread-Topic: [Microscopy] VP SEM for imaging biological samples 10, 25 -- thread-index: AcqTW47d74mtVx6XR/+Z1icTEqgVowAYsLvQ 10, 25 -- References: {201001120747.o0C7luaO005395-at-ns.microscopy.com} 10, 25 -- From: "Dusevich, Vladimir" {DusevichV-at-umkc.edu} 10, 25 -- To: {bengu-at-fen.bilkent.edu.tr} , {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 10, 25 -- X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Jan 2010 19:39:31.0554 (UTC) FILETIME=[F61B6420:01CA93BE] 10, 25 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 10, 25 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0CJdWjr023959 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
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Email: mckee-at-helix.mgh.harvard.edu Name: Mary McKee
Organization: MGH
Title-Subject: [Filtered] uranyl acetate crystals
Message: Dear List,
I am having a problem with uranyl acetate crystals on tissue culture cells that I stain, enbloc after OsO4. I thoroughly rinse the cells after OsO4, first in sodium cacodylate buffer and then in DH2O before the Ua step. After Ua, I rinse in DH2O, but I seem to get the crystals on cells (not on tissue). In cells with only OsO4, there are no crystals. Does anyone have any ideas? I filter everything. Thanks.
As others say, we have had very good luck with 2 part epoxies in our ground cross sections. We use the Buehler "Epoxicure." Edge retention with Si is good. And, there is more in the fillers area. Recently I added Carbon-Graphite filler at 4 weight percent to the mixed up Epoxicure. This accomplishes two things, it makes great contrast for optical light microscopy and it does a beautiful job mitigating charge in the SEM! I use a fine carbon powder, the tailings from ground-up Ted Pella graphite rods. (The tailings occur when we sharpen the tips of these graphite rods for our Cressington carbon coater).
Good luck.
Pete Eschbach Nanoindenter/X section/Electron Microscope Engineer Hewlett Packard Corp.
-----Original Message----- X-from: wesaia-at-iastate.edu [mailto:wesaia-at-iastate.edu] Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 7:25 AM To: Eschbach, Peter
I'm not quite clear on your sample. It sounds like you have trenches in silicon that are covered with a polymer that you want to then cover/fill with epoxy. Is that right?
I agree with the others that a two-part epoxy is probably more robust than the acrylics. Without knowing your polishing process, I think you would find many epoxies will stand up to polishing. Edge retention will be an issue, but the epoxy will probably be harder than your polymer.
I don't know how well fillers would work with the epoxy. I would be a bit afraid that the filler would increase the viscosity and prevent the trench from being well filled. On the other hand, the filler could provide contrast so that you can differentiate the epoxy from the polymer.
Contrast between the epoxy and polymer will be an issue. The different hardness should give polishing relief (sort of an etching) so that you can distinguish the two phases. Otherwise, the polymer and epoxy may appear to be one, continuous phase. If your polymer does not have an additional element, you may need to dope the epoxy so that you have some contrast between the phases.
Warren S.
-----Original Message----- X-from: colijn.1-at-osu.edu [mailto:colijn.1-at-osu.edu] Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 8:45 PM To: wesaia-at-iastate.edu
PLEASE DO NOT REPLY TO THIS EMAIL; SEE CONTACT INFORMATION BELOW.
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CIC nanoGUNE Consolider Tolosa Hiribidea, 76 E-20018 Donostia - San Sebastian Spain +34 943 574 023 http://www.nanogune.eu --------------------------------
==============================Original Headers============================== 27, 26 -- From a.chuvilin-at-microscopist.ru Wed Jan 13 03:39:08 2010 27, 26 -- Received: from mail.nanogune.eu (ns2.nanogune.intranet [150.241.217.19] (may be forged)) 27, 26 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with SMTP id o0D9d6If028253 27, 26 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 03:39:06 -0600 27, 26 -- Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) 27, 26 -- by mail.nanogune.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11932D306CC; 27, 26 -- Wed, 13 Jan 2010 10:39:01 +0100 (CET) 27, 26 -- X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at nanogune.eu 27, 26 -- Received: from mail.nanogune.eu ([127.0.0.1]) 27, 26 -- by localhost (srvosx02.nanogune.intranet [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) 27, 26 -- with ESMTP id EOpGzLKu8XJ3; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 10:38:59 +0100 (CET) 27, 26 -- Received: from dosx0018.nanogune.intranet (dosx0018.nanogune.intranet [150.241.217.89]) 27, 26 -- by mail.nanogune.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id A28EED306C2; 27, 26 -- Wed, 13 Jan 2010 10:38:59 +0100 (CET) 27, 26 -- Message-Id: {00C934BE-F4CC-45B0-8C8B-030CF6028193-at-microscopist.ru} 27, 26 -- From: Dusha {a.chuvilin-at-microscopist.ru} 27, 26 -- To: Microscopy-at-microscopy.com 27, 26 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed; delsp=yes 27, 26 -- Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) 27, 26 -- Subject: TEM technician position opening 27, 26 -- Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 10:38:58 +0100 27, 26 -- Cc: Txema Pitarke {jm.pitarke-at-nanogune.eu} , 27, 26 -- Andreas Berger {a.berger-at-nanogune.eu} 27, 26 -- X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) 27, 26 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 27, 26 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0D9d6If028253 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
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Email: gary.nichols-at-pfizer.com Name: Gary Nichols
Organization: Pfizer Global R&D (UK)
Title-Subject: [Filtered] Measuring specimen current in VP mode
Question: Dear Listers,
Do any of you have some guidance on how to measure the specimen/probe current using a Faraday cup whilst in VP mode? I am using a Zeiss SUPRA 40VP FE-SEM and have found that the measured current depends upon the gas pressure in the chamber and on the bias voltage applied to the VPSE detector.
I don’t often send messages to the list but enjoy reading the discussions. I am at a loss as to how to handle a current problem we have in our non-majors biology teaching lab. A colleague came to me yesterday with the problem of having a totally blind student (since birth) taking our non-majors biology lab. This is a very visual lab and we use student light microscopes for many of the exercises that we use. Can anyone make suggestions on how we might customize a lab experience for this student to make her experience rewarding in this class? We’ve talked about clay-modeling for tactile models of cells but I’ve never had to solve a problem like this.
Thanks in advance! I’ll be glad to post any responses I get to the list in summary form in a few days.
Russ Goddard Valdosta State University Biology Dept.
==============================Original Headers============================== 5, 26 -- From rgoddard-at-valdosta.edu Wed Jan 13 12:23:48 2010 5, 26 -- Received: from mailx.valdosta.edu (mailx.valdosta.edu [168.18.130.251]) 5, 26 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0DINmww010999 5, 26 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:23:48 -0600 5, 26 -- Authentication-Results: mailx.valdosta.edu; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none 5, 26 -- X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true 5, 26 -- X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Aq8EABeeTUuoEpeI/2dsb2JhbACRF7oqhTKGLYQwBA 5, 26 -- X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,269,1262581200"; 5, 26 -- d="scan'208";a="318692129" 5, 26 -- Received: from unknown (HELO IT02453) ([168.18.151.136]) 5, 26 -- by mailx.valdosta.edu with ESMTP; 13 Jan 2010 13:23:48 -0500 5, 26 -- From: "Russell Goddard" {rgoddard-at-valdosta.edu} 5, 26 -- To: {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 5, 26 -- Subject: Blind Student in Biology Lab 5, 26 -- Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 13:23:31 -0500 5, 26 -- Message-ID: {002e01ca947d$82841ec0$878c5c40$-at-edu} 5, 26 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 5, 26 -- Content-Type: text/plain; 5, 26 -- charset="iso-8859-1" 5, 26 -- X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 5, 26 -- Thread-Index: AcqUfYCNF6FWUSbVSYatcejeU+fovg== 5, 26 -- Content-Language: en-us 5, 26 -- x-cr-hashedpuzzle: WFc= A+Z4 By1W B5Hc CYO1 DYLu EP+N EQM2 F7eU GInd HLhU Hnhq JGQl JQMP KyIb LZ2C;1;bQBpAGMAcgBvAHMAYwBvAHAAeQBAAG0AaQBjAHIAbwBzAGMAbwBwAHkALgBjAG8AbQA=;Sosha1_v1;7;{2FEAF1B8-2858-4B1F-842C-FD684CEDA203};cgBnAG8AZABkAGEAcgBkAEAAdgBhAGwAZABvAHMAdABhAC4AZQBkAHUA;Wed, 13 Jan 2010 18:23:28 GMT;QgBsAGkAbgBkACAAUwB0AHUAZABlAG4AdAAgAGkAbgAgAEIAaQBvAGwAbwBnAHkAIABMAGEAYgA= 5, 26 -- x-cr-puzzleid: {2FEAF1B8-2858-4B1F-842C-FD684CEDA203} 5, 26 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 5, 26 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0DINmww010999 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
Please excuse the non-conventional nature of this post.
One of the PI's coming to our Imaging Facility would like some preliminary data from 5-6 slides and we don't have the right combination of hardware to do this. If it works out, we will invest in upgrades, in the meantime, I wondered whether any of you could help. We could send you the slides - and pay, of course.
She is looking at ICG dye (indocyanine green), an IR dye used commonly in ophthalmology to study circulation and equipment is available to routinely image this dye in intact eyes. In this study, following ICG labelling and image capture, the eyes were sectioned, mouse, I think, and now they want to look at the same specimen at the microscopic level. We don't have the equipment to do this.
ICG excitation : 805, emission : 835. A xenon light source (which we do have) would excite the dye, however we don't have proper filters. A monochromatic CCD camera usually has response in longer wavelengths (colour cameras have IR filters), however the efficiency of ours at } 800nm is very low.
Can anyone help? Thank you in advance. Judy
Judy Trogadis Bio-Imaging Coordinator St. Michael's Hospital, 7Queen 30 Bond St. Toronto, ON M5B 1W8, Canada ph: 416-864-6060 x6337 pager: 416-685-9219 fax: 416-864-5046 trogadisj-at-smh.toronto.on.ca
==============================Original Headers============================== 8, 29 -- From TrogadisJ-at-smh.toronto.on.ca Wed Jan 13 12:38:16 2010 8, 29 -- Received: from gwa01.gw.one-mail.on.ca (gwa01.gw.one-mail.on.ca [142.46.227.137]) 8, 29 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0DIcGGS026020 8, 29 -- for {Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com} ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:38:16 -0600 8, 29 -- Received: from smtpa01.one-mail.on.ca (tlsa.tls.one-mail.on.ca [10.250.26.63]) 8, 29 -- by gwa01.gw.one-mail.on.ca (gwa01) with ESMTP id o0DIcD57003572 8, 29 -- (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) 8, 29 -- for {Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com} ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 13:38:13 -0500 8, 29 -- Received: from smtpout.smh.toronto.on.ca ([10.61.0.12]) 8, 29 -- (authenticated bits=0) 8, 29 -- by smtpa01.one-mail.on.ca (smtpa01) with ESMTP id o0DIcBXT016422 8, 29 -- (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) 8, 29 -- for {Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com} ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 13:38:13 -0500 8, 29 -- Received: from SMTPOUT-MTA by smtpout.smh.toronto.on.ca 8, 29 -- with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 13:38:11 -0500 8, 29 -- Message-Id: {4B4DCCB9.9EC3.007D.0-at-smh.toronto.on.ca} 8, 29 -- X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 7.0.3 8, 29 -- Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 13:38:01 -0500 8, 29 -- From: "Judy Trogadis" {TrogadisJ-at-smh.toronto.on.ca} 8, 29 -- To: {Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com} 8, 29 -- Subject: we just need a couple of fluorescent images 8, 29 -- Mime-Version: 1.0 8, 29 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII 8, 29 -- Content-Disposition: inline 8, 29 -- X-CT-Refid: str=0001.0A020204.4B4E1315.0100,ss=1,fgs=0 8, 29 -- X-Spam-Score: 0.00% 8, 29 -- X-Spam-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=D9wc29CuzYJzbCPYfG96noH2GhocFwX22cGepS/mcjo= c=1 sm=1 a=aDXTLMtLmqQA:10 a=qaDW5w_lJfRL5bo7ZsEA:9 a=ptV1x1DToqVt3IYs7zjP-DaOoRcA:4 a=oOyCVGpa6iIA:10 a=35kDnDZFrEUA:10 a=J6uJtHXGQPMA:10 a=hAgTV3fZ4VoqJiilC+BWQg==:117% 8, 29 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 8, 29 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0DIcGGS026020 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
I haven't had a blind student, but have a thought: the model idea is good, especially since there are commercial 3D models. The student could then be given a ball of plasticine and asked to form models of cells, organelles, different leaf types, and so on after examing the model, or the real object (real leaf, etc.). She could then be asked to modify the model she made to show how a different e.g. leaf is shaped differently. Such a transformation helps get across the idea of morphology adaptations to environmental differences. (Drip-tips on leaves, and so on.)
Another idea is to lay a sheet of aluminum foil** on a smooth, fresh sheet of wax, and use a blunt dissecting probe (or other burnisher) to "draw" forms on the foil, producing indentations (ridges when flipped over) that could be "read" as Braille-like pictures. Another student could draw a picture of the subject while the blind student rested her hand on the 1st student's drawing hand, and would then work to duplicate the image with the foil.
**Or maybe something else, tougher than Al foil, but equally malleable.
I'll put on my other hat here, and if anyone does have experience with teaching such a visual subject to blind students, it would make an excellent article for Microscopy Today.
Phil
} I donít often send messages to the list but enjoy reading the discussions.Ý } I am at a loss as to how to handle a current problem we have in our } non-majors biology teaching lab.Ý A colleague came to me yesterday with the } problem of having a totally blind student (since birth) taking our } non-majors biology lab.Ý This is a very visual lab and we use student light } microscopes for many of the exercises that we use.Ý Can anyone make } suggestions on how we might customize a lab experience for this student to } make her experience rewarding in this class?Ý Weíve talked about } clay-modeling for tactile models of cells but Iíve never had to solve a } problem like this. } } Thanks in advance!Ý Iíll be glad to post any responses I get to the list in } summary form in a few days. } } Russ Goddard } Valdosta State University } Biology Dept. -- Philip Oshel Technical Editor, Microscopy Today Microscopy Facility Supervisor Biology Department 024C Brooks Hall Central Michigan University Mt. Pleasant, MI 48859 (989) 774-3576
==============================Original Headers============================== 8, 28 -- From oshel1pe-at-cmich.edu Wed Jan 13 12:44:31 2010 8, 28 -- Received: from ob4.cmich.edu (ob4.cmich.edu [141.209.20.25]) 8, 28 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0DIiVQs006485 8, 28 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:44:31 -0600 8, 28 -- Received: from egatea.central.cmich.local ([141.209.15.74]) 8, 28 -- by ob4.cmich.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id o0DIiALC013977; 8, 28 -- Wed, 13 Jan 2010 13:44:30 -0500 8, 28 -- Received: from [141.209.160.249] ([141.209.160.249]) by egatea.central.cmich.local with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); 8, 28 -- Wed, 13 Jan 2010 13:44:29 -0500 8, 28 -- Mime-Version: 1.0 8, 28 -- Message-Id: {f06240815c773c27355d9-at-[141.209.160.249]} 8, 28 -- In-Reply-To: {201001131827.o0DIRX3C016592-at-ns.microscopy.com} 8, 28 -- References: {201001131827.o0DIRX3C016592-at-ns.microscopy.com} 8, 28 -- Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 13:44:27 -0500 8, 28 -- To: Microscopy-at-microscopy.com 8, 28 -- From: Philip Oshel {oshel1pe-at-cmich.edu} 8, 28 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] Blind Student in Biology Lab 8, 28 -- Cc: rgoddard-at-valdosta.edu 8, 28 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" 8, 28 -- X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Jan 2010 18:44:29.0557 (UTC) FILETIME=[70606250:01CA9480] 8, 28 -- X-Bayes-Prob: 0.0001 (Score -0.5, tokens from: -at--at-RPTN, default) 8, 28 -- X-Spam-Score: -2.60 () [Hold at 6.00] L_EXCH_MF,MIME_QP_LONG_LINE,RDNS_NONE,Bayes(0.0001,-0.5) 8, 28 -- X-CanIt-Geo: ip=141.209.15.74; country=US; region=MI; city=Mount Pleasant; postalcode=48859; latitude=43.5647; longitude=-84.8473; metrocode=513; areacode=989; http://maps.google.com/maps?q=43.5647,-84.8473&z=6 8, 28 -- X-CanItPRO-Stream: default 8, 28 -- X-Canit-Stats-ID: 25808470 - ea231cef4419 - 20100113 8, 28 -- X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) on 141.209.20.25 8, 28 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 8, 28 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0DIiVQs006485 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
It is an admirable thing that you are attempting to accomplish and I salute you.
Are there any models available of cells that are similar to the anatomical, plaster models of humans and plants? They should consist of layers that come apart.
In the past, for a lower level course, I made a cell out of jello with the individual components (nuclei, nucleoli, mitochondria, plastids, etc) composed of various fruits: peach = nucleus, peach pit = nucleolus, banana = mitochondrion, grapes = vesicles, etc. It's great because you could discuss sol/gel phenomena, migration of organelles, including chromosomes (licorice strands).
The day after the hands on experience, I would bring in a clean, gelled cell and we would eat the cell, usually with whipped cream (aka, extracellular matrix). More mitochondria.... please.
Obviously, it's lunch time here.......
-- John J. Bozzola, Ph.D., Director I.M.A.G.E. (Integrated Microscopy & Graphics Expertise Southern Illinois University 750 Communications Drive Carbondale, IL 62901 Phone: 618-453-3730
On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 12:24 PM, {rgoddard-at-valdosta.edu} wrote: } } } } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor:  The Microscopy Society of America } To  Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver } On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } I don’t often send messages to the list but enjoy reading the discussions. } I am at a loss as to how to handle a current problem we have in our } non-majors biology teaching lab. A colleague came to me yesterday with the } problem of having a totally blind student (since birth) taking our } non-majors biology lab. This is a very visual lab and we use student light } microscopes for many of the exercises that we use. Can anyone make } suggestions on how we might customize a lab experience for this student to } make her experience rewarding in this class? We’ve talked about } clay-modeling for tactile models of cells but I’ve never had to solve a } problem like this. } } Thanks in advance! I’ll be glad to post any responses I get to the list in } summary form in a few days. } } Russ Goddard } Valdosta State University } Biology Dept.
==============================Original Headers============================== 11, 19 -- From bozzola-at-siu.edu Wed Jan 13 12:47:35 2010 11, 19 -- Received: from mail-px0-f194.google.com (mail-px0-f194.google.com [209.85.216.194]) 11, 19 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0DIlYiC014622 11, 19 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:47:35 -0600 11, 19 -- Received: by pxi32 with SMTP id 32so16889382pxi.15 11, 19 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 10:47:34 -0800 (PST) 11, 19 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 11, 19 -- Received: by 10.141.91.7 with SMTP id t7mr4753009rvl.69.1263408454212; Wed, 13 11, 19 -- Jan 2010 10:47:34 -0800 (PST) 11, 19 -- In-Reply-To: {201001131824.o0DIOglF012262-at-ns.microscopy.com} 11, 19 -- References: {201001131824.o0DIOglF012262-at-ns.microscopy.com} 11, 19 -- Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:47:33 -0600 11, 19 -- Message-ID: {ebc2299e1001131047g6147568ap30fe20b1e779a91b-at-mail.gmail.com} 11, 19 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] Blind Student in Biology Lab 11, 19 -- From: John Bozzola {bozzola-at-siu.edu} 11, 19 -- To: MSAListserver {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 11, 19 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 11, 19 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 11, 19 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0DIlYiC014622 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
I was at Temple University Medical Center in the early 70's. At this time there was a totally blind medical student who had to take all the courses and practicals that anyone else had to participate in. I was told that he had to memorize all the details of histology slides so that when someone described a slide to him he could tell the tissue type etc. He went on to be a Psychiatrist I believe.
Being the daughter of a totally blind father (WWII Vet.) I know that there is an amazing amount of things that blind people can do - sometimes in a slightly different manner than what a sighted person may expect.
Since you are in a University this student has certainly gone through high school science classes already. I would strongly suggest that you speak with her and find out what had worked for her in previous science classes. There is a lot more to lab than looking at things. She can hold, pour, assist, etc. I bet she'll be great at recording the results that her lab partner could be discussing with her. She may be excellent in drawing conclusions. See where I am going with this?
I have seen students that could not look at a dissection, pass that lab because of the cooperation of a lab partner who did not mind the actual procedure. It happens.
I'm sure you will both benefit from the class! Pat
Patricia Stranen Connelly Research Assistant NHLBI Electron Microscopy Core National Institutes of Health 14 Service Road West Bldg. 14E Rm. 111B MSC 5570 Bethesda, MD 20892-5570 Phone 301-496-3491 FAX 301-480-6560 connellyps-at-mail.nih.gov {mailto:connellyps-at-mail.nih.gov}
Opinions and experiences related are those of Pat Connelly and do not represent the NIH. This message is not confidential and can be freely shared and reproduced.
I don¹t often send messages to the list but enjoy reading the discussions. I am at a loss as to how to handle a current problem we have in our non-majors biology teaching lab. A colleague came to me yesterday with the problem of having a totally blind student (since birth) taking our non-majors biology lab. This is a very visual lab and we use student light microscopes for many of the exercises that we use. Can anyone make suggestions on how we might customize a lab experience for this student to make her experience rewarding in this class? We¹ve talked about clay-modeling for tactile models of cells but I¹ve never had to solve a problem like this.
Thanks in advance! I¹ll be glad to post any responses I get to the list in summary form in a few days.
Russ Goddard Valdosta State University Biology Dept.
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==============================Original Headers============================== 19, 30 -- From connellyps-at-nhlbi.nih.gov Wed Jan 13 13:04:15 2010 19, 30 -- Received: from nihxway5out.hub.nih.gov (nihxway5out.hub.nih.gov [128.231.90.113]) 19, 30 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0DJ4FsA005661 19, 30 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 13:04:15 -0600 19, 30 -- X-IronPortListener: Outbound_SMTP 19, 30 -- Received: from nihcessmtp3.hub.nih.gov ([128.231.90.117]) 19, 30 -- by nihxway5out.hub.nih.gov with ESMTP; 13 Jan 2010 14:03:41 -0500 19, 30 -- Received: from NIHHT01.nih.gov ([156.40.71.20]) by NIHCESSMTP3.hub.nih.gov with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); 19, 30 -- Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:03:39 -0500 19, 30 -- Received: from NIHMLBX05.nih.gov ([156.40.71.35]) by NIHHT01.nih.gov 19, 30 -- ([156.40.71.20]) with mapi; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:03:36 -0500 19, 30 -- From: "Connelly, Patricia (NIH/NHLBI) [E]" {connellyps-at-nhlbi.nih.gov} 19, 30 -- To: "rgoddard-at-valdosta.edu" {rgoddard-at-valdosta.edu} , 19, 30 -- "microscopy-at-microscopy.com" {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 19, 30 -- Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:02:52 -0500 19, 30 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] Blind Student in Biology Lab 19, 30 -- Thread-Topic: [Microscopy] Blind Student in Biology Lab 19, 30 -- Thread-Index: AcqUfi652I4NYb9wQneVLdUtcMYj8QABNLC5 19, 30 -- Message-ID: {C773830C.478E%connellyps-at-nhlbi.nih.gov} 19, 30 -- In-Reply-To: {201001131828.o0DISJMM018080-at-ns.microscopy.com} 19, 30 -- Accept-Language: en-US 19, 30 -- Content-Language: en 19, 30 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: 19, 30 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 19, 30 -- acceptlanguage: en-US 19, 30 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" 19, 30 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 19, 30 -- X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Jan 2010 19:03:39.0379 (UTC) FILETIME=[1DB94C30:01CA9483] 19, 30 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 19, 30 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0DJ4FsA005661 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
I distributed this query to a Biology Teaching list that I monitor. Here is a set of replies that arrived within an hour of my posting:
X-from Nancy Ruggeri {nruggeri-at-wisc.edu} This sounds like a fabulous opportunity to engage your students and create community in your classroom. If you have them working in groups, you could have this student's lab partners describe what they see in the microscopes, and develop ways to help each other communicate the visual aspects of the lab. Interesting elements could come out about form and function... I think it sounds like a great "teachable moment" that can benefit everyone involved. Good luck!
Here is my experience. During my master's program I made extra money by working in the student services area of the university. One of my jobs one semester was to attend lab with a blind student. I did all the "looking at things" through the microscope. My responsibility to the student was to describe what I saw. Maybe some combo of using a student helper to describe what is being observed under the microscope paired with activities that use other senses.
Amy Morris, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Biology Hastings College 710 N. Turner Ave. Hastings, NE 68901 402-461-7745
X-from: John La Duke { john.laduke-at-und.edu } Our Student Support Services began creating braille handouts including raised surface images for us some yrs ago. The student was in the lab for a few sessions but never finished. The materials are difficult to create and close interaction with the professional was necessary. If it would help, I can look to see if I still have any of it.
John X-from: "Stacey Kiser" { kisers-at-lanecc.edu } I have never had a blind-since-birth student, but I had two severely visually impaired students in the non-majors cell bio classes. In one case, I had the microscope hooked up to a small t.v. set so the student could use the microscope by herself for the first time in her bio experience. She loved it. We don't seem to clean out our stockroom very often, so we have lots of old models that are in 3D - animal and plant cells, mitosis, etc. The students were able to get a lot from the model by feeling it while a lab partner described/named structures for them. We experimented with clay, string, and puffy paint for graphs (some success). Our Disability Resources office now has a printer that can take an image and turn it into a 3D print-out on special paper. Both students had their own laptops with software that allowed them to view web sites. It helped me justify why we needed a wireless hub in our end of the building.
My best success came from getting the students in a good lab group. In both cases, the students around the visually impaired students learned a lot by helping out. In one case they would had the pipettes over so she could feel them, and included her in the lab to the fullest extent.
Stacey
Stacey Kiser Biology Instructor Science Division Building 16, Office 162H Lane Community College Eugene, OR 97405
I'll send more if I get them.
On 13 Jan 2010 at 12:31, rgoddard-at-valdosta.edu wrote:
} } } } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of America } To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver } On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } I don´t often send messages to the list but enjoy reading the discussions. } I am at a loss as to how to handle a current problem we have in our } non-majors biology teaching lab. A colleague came to me yesterday with the } problem of having a totally blind student (since birth) taking our } non-majors biology lab. This is a very visual lab and we use student light } microscopes for many of the exercises that we use. Can anyone make } suggestions on how we might customize a lab experience for this student to } make her experience rewarding in this class? We´ve talked about } clay-modeling for tactile models of cells but I´ve never had to solve a } problem like this. } } Thanks in advance! I´ll be glad to post any responses I get to the list in } summary form in a few days. } } Russ Goddard } Valdosta State University } Biology Dept. }
-- Joel B. Sheffield, Ph.D. Biology Department, Temple University 1900 North 12th Street Philadelphia, PA 19122 jbs-at-temple.edu (215) 204 8839, fax (215) 204 0486 http://astro.temple.edu/~jbs
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I, too, had this problem with a student. Fortunately, we had some 3D models of cells that the student could manipulate. Additionally, we also found that the "raised paint" that kids use to draw on their t-shirts and things was also very effective (one of the department moms said it is called liquid embroidery paint). We would draw the cells (or stage of mitosis, etc) and the student could 'feel' what was going on. Also, BSC has a history for training educators (we were the first Normal College in the US), I was lucky to find a good and dedicated student who was in the Education department and wanted the experience of working with a special needs student. It worked out very well. The student would use that paint stuff to draw what she saw in the microscope...things like amoeba or paramecium, the usual stuff. And, she would describe what she saw to the student. Both benefited from this interaction. I also benefited from having this young man in my lecture and lab as I found myself trying to be more descriptive during my lectures and not solely relying on the diagrams. I'd be happy to elaborate more if you need!
Jeff P.S. I also had the same student in a non-major Human Sexuality class. He and I had a running joke that he couldn't use the class to approach women with the line that he had to study anatomy for this class and needed a model.
Do you know if the university has a disabilities services program? We had two blind students in our majors level first semester course last semester, and will have one in our second semester course this term. We also have been struggling with a way to teach blind students in a microscope intensive course.
We are considerably aided by our University's Disabilities Services Program. So far this is what we've come up with.
1. Label the microscope (and any other equipment) with braille characters and require the student to recognize the structure and function of the key elements of the microscope. We bought a braille hand labeler, and have complete lab set with braille labels (including glassware so the student can setup some experiments). It's time consuming, but we now have the labeled materials, and I have a staff member who can read braille as a result of all her labeling.
2. Encourage the lab group that includes the blind student to engage in descriptive interaction. Get them to help teach the student what the results of an experiment look like, or what a slide looks like etc. It helps if the lab instructor has an assistant. The instructor can take care of the rest of the class, while the assistant circulates to help and keeps an eye out to assist the blind student as necessary.
3. Meet with the blind student before class to physically show them around the lab so they know where everything is located.
4. Create high contrast (simplified) diagrams that contain key elements. These drawings can be rendered into a three dimensional image via a thermal machine and provided to the student to study in lieu of looking at microscope slides. Our disabilities services department has a machine that can take black and white drawings and render them into three-dimensional images. If your university doesn't have one, you may have to select the key images and draw them yourself (see suggestion #5). We plan to take use this strategy to get through the slide work for our courses.
5. Where a thermal paper machine is not available, or it is NOT possible to render a diagram into a 3-dimensional image, use some commonly accessible art supplies such as raised tape, three dimensional dots, and puff paint to create tactile images. We managed to teach a forensic lab complete with fingerprints and DNA electrophoresis results to our blind students last semester using these techniques.
6. Rely on touch, taste, sound, and smell as much as possible. Try to think of ways to teach the topic that are not exclusively visual. Use three-dimensional models, or actual specimens that are safe to touch instead of slides where possible. Label the models with braille characters. If the actual word is too long to use, tag the model with braille characters such as A, B, C ... and then make a braille key to go with the model.
7. Give quizzes and exams separately from the rest of the class. The blind student will require more time. If you can convert the tests to braille, that is great, but if not someone will need to read the questions and record the answers. Even if the question is in braille there may still be a need to record the answer. Also if a lab practical is involved, someone will need to escort the student through the stations, describe the setups, and guide the student to the tactile portions of the setup.
8. Give the student the text and lab manual enough time in advance to convert them to auditory or braille documents. Our disabilities services program does this for us, but some students have individual text readers.
Tonna Harris-Haller Associate Director - Lower Division Biology Program Biology Dept. Texas A&M University College Station, Tx. 77843-3258
phone: 979-845-4606 fax; 979-458-2030
-- Joel B. Sheffield, Ph.D. Biology Department, Temple University 1900 North 12th Street Philadelphia, PA 19122 jbs-at-temple.edu (215) 204 8839, fax (215) 204 0486 http://astro.temple.edu/~jbs
==============================Original Headers============================== 32, 39 -- From joelsheffield-at-gmail.com Wed Jan 13 14:42:26 2010 32, 39 -- Received: from mail-qy0-f182.google.com (mail-qy0-f182.google.com [209.85.221.182]) 32, 39 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0DKgQul006714 32, 39 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:42:26 -0600 32, 39 -- Received: by qyk12 with SMTP id 12so5318975qyk.21 32, 39 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:42:26 -0800 (PST) 32, 39 -- DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; 32, 39 -- d=gmail.com; s=gamma; 32, 39 -- h=domainkey-signature:received:received:from:to:date:mime-version 32, 39 -- :subject:message-id:priority:x-mailer:content-type 32, 39 -- :content-transfer-encoding:content-description; 32, 39 -- bh=8NbQhJIBwA49qFk/HIME3F1lf0v7a2boxFbxhr4A2sU=; 32, 39 -- b=rYcCz+QJf/TVg41EYuAB2qcu1nkKuTjhZVT4vwuarnPtv5pJV4uRZUrey/dRnGmU4E 32, 39 -- edrSynrG8ppMgvJPkNigZjHBJCgCcNySOtKeB+NEJH5F1Zr07AnaTTkSPqqzhgZoAcEc 32, 39 -- eYXavu5rWlMiZTwGSofTfa7/ud5vSiPctOLfc= 32, 39 -- DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; 32, 39 -- d=gmail.com; s=gamma; 32, 39 -- h=from:to:date:mime-version:subject:message-id:priority:x-mailer 32, 39 -- :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-description; 32, 39 -- b=kZDTa+aXoF61QXSBHgZXas6uly5nsjSCJ+hUu67l7X4OvVhx7QqQXTSq5KISjmHIbk 32, 39 -- gmQ0ub6ujiU7eWJ3LOwxUpQa8YVeW+sMn5rreH7cqsXfqxPh/BFQ/l3WH/384teDRKvL 32, 39 -- Emu1Z3EGv21lpW/dDknkLGB+KXVbcYCsk3f0Q= 32, 39 -- Received: by 10.224.79.2 with SMTP id n2mr1137139qak.189.1263415344856; 32, 39 -- Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:42:24 -0800 (PST) 32, 39 -- Received: from ?155.247.98.40? (jbs.bio.temple.edu [155.247.98.40]) 32, 39 -- by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 39sm96690yxd.45.2010.01.13.12.42.23 32, 39 -- (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); 32, 39 -- Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:42:23 -0800 (PST) 32, 39 -- From: joelsheffield-at-gmail.com 32, 39 -- To: microscopy-at-microscopy.com 32, 39 -- Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 15:42:21 -0500 32, 39 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 32, 39 -- Subject: Re: Blind Student in Lab 32, 39 -- Message-ID: {4B4DE9DD.5957.661889-at-joelsheffield.gmail.com} 32, 39 -- Priority: normal 32, 39 -- X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.41) 32, 39 -- Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII 32, 39 -- Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT 32, 39 -- Content-description: Mail message body ==============================End of - Headers==============================
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Title-Subject: [Filtered] processing dynamic cell culture for TEM
Message: I have been asked to prepare a two-cell system for TEM to observe a temporary and not very strong attachment between the two cell types in culture. One of the cell lines adheres to the substrate while the other floats and makes temporary attachments with the adherent cells (as observed by time lapse video). The challenge is to collect the cells in a manner that preserves at least some of the attachments. Has anyone any experience with such a system, or any suggestions?
You've received a lot of clever, sensitive & helpful replies to your inquiry. I'd like to suggest that you buy a book to share with your lab staff (you can find it online for little more than the postage). Geeraty Vermeij is arguably the world's leading authority on molluscan morphological development, and he's been blind since early childhood. He's on the U. of California at Davis faculty, and "Priviledged Hands: a Scientific Life" is his autobiography. -- Caroline Schooley Project MICRO Coordinator Microscopy Society of America 45301 Caspar Point Road, Box 117 Caspar, CA 95420 Phone/FAX (707)964-9460 Project MICRO: http://www.microscopy.org/ProjectMICRO
==============================Original Headers============================== 1, 18 -- From schooley-at-mcn.org Wed Jan 13 15:30:36 2010 1, 18 -- Received: from smtp1.mcn.org (smtp1.mcn.org [216.150.240.85]) 1, 18 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0DLUZ1Z004845 1, 18 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 15:30:35 -0600 1, 18 -- Received: from [66.81.42.247] 1, 18 -- by smtp1.mcn.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.63) 1, 18 -- (envelope-from {schooley-at-mcn.org} ) 1, 18 -- id 1NVAnR-00052F-3M; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 13:30:34 -0800 1, 18 -- Mime-Version: 1.0 1, 18 -- Message-Id: {a06200701c773e99b855e-at-[66.81.42.247]} 1, 18 -- In-Reply-To: {201001131831.o0DIVNMT022111-at-ns.microscopy.com} 1, 18 -- References: {201001131831.o0DIVNMT022111-at-ns.microscopy.com} 1, 18 -- Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 13:30:20 -0800 1, 18 -- To: rgoddard-at-valdosta.edu 1, 18 -- From: Caroline Schooley {schooley-at-mcn.org} 1, 18 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] Blind Student in Biology Lab 1, 18 -- Cc: "Microscopy Listserver" {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 1, 18 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" ==============================End of - Headers==============================
Pre Christmas I spent several months south of the Equator working with some very good scientists on state of the art SEM. All of these instruments were FEG, with both in and out of lens secondary electron detectors. Having spent the last week writing up reports it suddenly struck me that the techniques I introduced should have been part of the standard training for this type of instrument.
I was one of the first people in the world to run a double detector instrument when I worked on a pre production SS Series instrument at ISI. My task was to look at all the options made available with a double detector instrument, the advantages and disadvantages of the different detectors with different types of specimen. With that information, as I gradually developed an understanding of the generation of the signals I was receiving, I was able to acquire exactly the signal mix which optimised the image for the task in hand.
Over these past months it was very clear that the people I worked with just knew that using the upper and short working distances gave them high resolution, the subtleties of double detection instruments were unknown because they had not been taught how to use the instrument correctly. I think of the state of the art SEM as a racing car; my other life. There are times, when it is easy to do so, that you go flat out because you have so much potential, but there are other times when flat out makes the task much more difficult. That is state of the art SEM, you have so much resolution available but you really need other instrument attributes to obtain the perfect image. So often I witnessed a quest for resolution when, with the potential of the instrument, the chronic charging of the specimen should have taken priority and I don't just mean turning down the accelerating voltage.
So the point of this note, do people suffer from the same problems in the northern hemisphere in that the subtleties of operation are ignored when manufacturers train operators on state of the art FEG SEM? There are more FEG SEM in the northern hemisphere so does that mean the knowledge of the manufacturer's staff is of a higher level?
Thoughts?
Steve Chapman FRMS Senior Consultant Protrain For consultancy and training in electron microscopy world wide Tel +44 (0)1280 816512 Fax +44 (0)1280 814007 Cell +44 (0)7711 606967 www.emcourses.com
==============================Original Headers============================== 9, 27 -- From protrain-at-emcourses.com Thu Jan 14 08:32:56 2010 9, 27 -- Received: from smtp01.dial-up.net (smtp01.dial-up.net [196.26.208.170]) 9, 27 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0EEWtMd012756 9, 27 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 08:32:56 -0600 9, 27 -- Received: from 5ac8bf0c.bb.sky.com ([90.200.191.12]:51699 helo=ProtrainPC) 9, 27 -- by smtp01.dial-up.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.68 #0) 9, 27 -- (envelope-from {protrain-at-emcourses.com} ) 9, 27 -- id 1NVQkn-0002s8-Kx by authid {09b79efaf87c50cb314d7cc58a4aab80} with fixed_login 9, 27 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 16:32:54 +0200 9, 27 -- Reply-To: {protrain-at-emcourses.com} 9, 27 -- From: "Steve Chapman" {protrain-at-emcourses.com} 9, 27 -- To: "Microscopical Soc of America" {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 9, 27 -- References: {201001121258.o0CCwNKS012795-at-ns.microscopy.com} 9, 27 -- In-Reply-To: {201001121258.o0CCwNKS012795-at-ns.microscopy.com} 9, 27 -- Subject: State of the Art SEM 9, 27 -- Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 14:32:21 -0000 9, 27 -- Organization: Protrain 9, 27 -- Message-ID: {000601ca9526$700fa5d0$502ef170$-at-com} 9, 27 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 9, 27 -- Content-Type: text/plain; 9, 27 -- charset="us-ascii" 9, 27 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 9, 27 -- X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 9, 27 -- Thread-Index: AcqThvilAzVfdgXBQyKxsKFZAOTyFwBnz7ww 9, 27 -- Content-Language: en-gb 9, 27 -- X-Scan-Signature: 765847b7b841c94ad8139cf44bd53835{47}} 9, 27 -- X-Trace: smtp01.dial-up.net 1NVQkn-0002s8-Kx 8dd36d0d7559cb2098d703edc4baee46 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
It is a very interesting point you bring up. I spent nearly 10 years working for one the manufactures of High res- FESEM's as an applications specialist. The topics/concepts that were emphasized in training were often driven by the demands of the customer. This seemed to be more true in an onsite training rather than those we would provide to a mixed group (people from different companies) at our offices/demo labs. This maybe right or wrong depending on where you stand on the following statements, "The customer doesn't know either what he really wants, or what he really needs." And the "Customer is always right." I think that it is often the case that the applications people are being driven by trying to meet the customers demands/expectations, "I purchased a HI-RES FESEM, I demand HI-RES 100% of the time." Many of the FESEM's that we sold were into an "industrial" environment where good and knowledgeable people were always under the gun, and had an end result they needed to meet. Good images of something either good or bad, and lots of them. One of our first obligations to the customer was making sure they could do their job, and meet their employers' expectations. I always made sure that the people I was training were told of the items you mentioned. I think that if you neglect educating the customer about what all the options they have on their systems you are doing them a disservice ("options" is equal to "detectors" in the case). You are not fulfilling your contract/agreement with the customer to provide them with the education they need to get the most out of the product you have sold to them. It is important to remember that there are at the very least 2 detectors available, and they will provide different images/data/perspectives of the same feature. It is a good idea to take advantage of them. Often users are more focused on treating the SEM in general as a camera (point and shoot) for getting an image of their preconceived ideal/or not so ideal features/defects. Many users, not all, (readers of this list are an exception) forget that they are using a tunable microscope capable of scientific discovery. The SEM (FESEM) is dynamic system. A system where when parameters are changed different information is made visible and available. Learning about your SEM (FESEM) is a life long journey.
To this idea I add the following. This morning I encountered one of my newer/less experienced users on my FESEM in our clean room here at RPI, and he complained that the images he was getting weren't as good as those his company was getting from a contract lab. (He has less than 10 hours on the system.) After spending some time with him, and showing him a few things, and changing some parameters he said "I didn't think I could do this." I think newer users are often driven to get lots of data/images quickly, and they don't always remember or to take the time, to change a few things. They don't try to see if they can make an image better with different conditions/detectors. They are either afraid to take a bad picture, think outside the box, or see what all different "knobs and buttons" do. Changing parameters isn't going to break the machine. Today, images aren't costing 2 dollars a sheet. If the picture is bad, hit delete and move on and take a new one.
The bottom line here is that I think the applications people at the major microscope companies try and teach customers all they need to know. Do they (the customers) hear and absorb it all? Not likely. We are all at fault in this area that's why it is a good practice to take notes when learning about new things. Education on any subject should be a life long endeavor. You should never be satisfied with your skills and knowledge. One should always be striving toward self betterment and the expansion of your knowledge and skill. I hope my views (and they are mine alone), add a useful voice to the topic you want to address.
Regards,
David
M. David Frey Senior Application Engineer Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute Low Center for Industrial Inn. Center for Integrated Electronics 110 8th Street CII 4161 (Office) CII 6015 (Packages and Mail) Troy, NY 12180 518-276-3323 (office) 518-698-2288 (mobile) -----Original Message----- X-from: protrain-at-emcourses.com [mailto:protrain-at-emcourses.com] Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 9:41 AM To: freym2-at-rpi.edu
Hi Listers
Pre Christmas I spent several months south of the Equator working with some very good scientists on state of the art SEM. All of these instruments were FEG, with both in and out of lens secondary electron detectors. Having spent the last week writing up reports it suddenly struck me that the techniques I introduced should have been part of the standard training for this type of instrument.
I was one of the first people in the world to run a double detector instrument when I worked on a pre production SS Series instrument at ISI. My task was to look at all the options made available with a double detector instrument, the advantages and disadvantages of the different detectors with different types of specimen. With that information, as I gradually developed an understanding of the generation of the signals I was receiving, I was able to acquire exactly the signal mix which optimised the image for the task in hand.
Over these past months it was very clear that the people I worked with just knew that using the upper and short working distances gave them high resolution, the subtleties of double detection instruments were unknown because they had not been taught how to use the instrument correctly. I think of the state of the art SEM as a racing car; my other life. There are times, when it is easy to do so, that you go flat out because you have so much potential, but there are other times when flat out makes the task much more difficult. That is state of the art SEM, you have so much resolution available but you really need other instrument attributes to obtain the perfect image. So often I witnessed a quest for resolution when, with the potential of the instrument, the chronic charging of the specimen should have taken priority and I don't just mean turning down the accelerating voltage.
So the point of this note, do people suffer from the same problems in the northern hemisphere in that the subtleties of operation are ignored when manufacturers train operators on state of the art FEG SEM? There are more FEG SEM in the northern hemisphere so does that mean the knowledge of the manufacturer's staff is of a higher level?
Thoughts?
Steve Chapman FRMS Senior Consultant Protrain For consultancy and training in electron microscopy world wide Tel +44 (0)1280 816512 Fax +44 (0)1280 814007 Cell +44 (0)7711 606967 www.emcourses.com
==============================Original Headers============================== 9, 27 -- From protrain-at-emcourses.com Thu Jan 14 08:32:56 2010 9, 27 -- Received: from smtp01.dial-up.net (smtp01.dial-up.net [196.26.208.170]) 9, 27 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0EEWtMd012756 9, 27 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 08:32:56 -0600 9, 27 -- Received: from 5ac8bf0c.bb.sky.com ([90.200.191.12]:51699 helo=ProtrainPC) 9, 27 -- by smtp01.dial-up.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.68 #0) 9, 27 -- (envelope-from {protrain-at-emcourses.com} ) 9, 27 -- id 1NVQkn-0002s8-Kx by authid {09b79efaf87c50cb314d7cc58a4aab80} with fixed_login 9, 27 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 16:32:54 +0200 9, 27 -- Reply-To: {protrain-at-emcourses.com} 9, 27 -- From: "Steve Chapman" {protrain-at-emcourses.com} 9, 27 -- To: "Microscopical Soc of America" {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 9, 27 -- References: {201001121258.o0CCwNKS012795-at-ns.microscopy.com} 9, 27 -- In-Reply-To: {201001121258.o0CCwNKS012795-at-ns.microscopy.com} 9, 27 -- Subject: State of the Art SEM 9, 27 -- Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 14:32:21 -0000 9, 27 -- Organization: Protrain 9, 27 -- Message-ID: {000601ca9526$700fa5d0$502ef170$-at-com} 9, 27 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 9, 27 -- Content-Type: text/plain; 9, 27 -- charset="us-ascii" 9, 27 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 9, 27 -- X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 9, 27 -- Thread-Index: AcqThvilAzVfdgXBQyKxsKFZAOTyFwBnz7ww 9, 27 -- Content-Language: en-gb 9, 27 -- X-Scan-Signature: 765847b7b841c94ad8139cf44bd53835{47}} 9, 27 -- X-Trace: smtp01.dial-up.net 1NVQkn-0002s8-Kx 8dd36d0d7559cb2098d703edc4baee46 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
==============================Original Headers============================== 23, 26 -- From freym2-at-rpi.edu Thu Jan 14 10:53:44 2010 23, 26 -- Received: from smtp7.server.rpi.edu (smtp7.server.rpi.edu [128.113.2.227]) 23, 26 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0EGrhQ3030784 23, 26 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 10:53:43 -0600 23, 26 -- Received: from Frey (sponge-bob-13.dynamic.rpi.edu [128.113.222.52]) 23, 26 -- by smtp7.server.rpi.edu (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id o0EGrdPY023783 23, 26 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 11:53:42 -0500 23, 26 -- From: "M. David Frey" {freym2-at-rpi.edu} 23, 26 -- To: {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 23, 26 -- References: {201001141440.o0EEemih020605-at-ns.microscopy.com} 23, 26 -- Subject: RE: [Microscopy] State of the Art SEM 23, 26 -- Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 11:53:38 -0500 23, 26 -- Message-ID: {67D44C9134F24725852345C8CD39D923-at-Frey} 23, 26 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 23, 26 -- Content-Type: text/plain; 23, 26 -- charset="us-ascii" 23, 26 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 23, 26 -- X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 23, 26 -- Thread-Index: AcqVJ5DaN7oqnnhFQtS98gnoCy3f2QABCN8g 23, 26 -- X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 23, 26 -- In-Reply-To: {201001141440.o0EEemih020605-at-ns.microscopy.com} 23, 26 -- X-Bayes-Prob: 0.0001 (Score 0) 23, 26 -- X-RPI-SA-Score: 0.00 () [Hold at 20.00] ADVANCE_FEE_1,22490(-25) 23, 26 -- X-CanItPRO-Stream: outgoing 23, 26 -- X-Canit-Stats-ID: Bayes signature not available 23, 26 -- X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) on 128.113.2.227 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
Don't forget Edward DeMille Campbell, one of the greatest researchers of metallurgy. He was blinded by a laboratory explosion at age 28, but went on to an extraordinary career of teaching and research. Today, the highest award given annually by ASM is the Campbell lectureship. More at: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ie50191a048
John Mardinly Western Digital
-----Original Message----- X-from: schooley-at-mcn.org [mailto:schooley-at-mcn.org] Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 1:39 PM To: John Mardinly
You've received a lot of clever, sensitive & helpful replies to your inquiry. I'd like to suggest that you buy a book to share with your lab staff (you can find it online for little more than the postage). Geeraty Vermeij is arguably the world's leading authority on molluscan morphological development, and he's been blind since early childhood. He's on the U. of California at Davis faculty, and "Priviledged Hands: a Scientific Life" is his autobiography. -- Caroline Schooley Project MICRO Coordinator Microscopy Society of America 45301 Caspar Point Road, Box 117 Caspar, CA 95420 Phone/FAX (707)964-9460 Project MICRO: http://www.microscopy.org/ProjectMICRO
==============================Original Headers============================== 1, 18 -- From schooley-at-mcn.org Wed Jan 13 15:30:36 2010 1, 18 -- Received: from smtp1.mcn.org (smtp1.mcn.org [216.150.240.85]) 1, 18 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0DLUZ1Z004845 1, 18 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 15:30:35 -0600 1, 18 -- Received: from [66.81.42.247] 1, 18 -- by smtp1.mcn.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.63) 1, 18 -- (envelope-from {schooley-at-mcn.org} ) 1, 18 -- id 1NVAnR-00052F-3M; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 13:30:34 -0800 1, 18 -- Mime-Version: 1.0 1, 18 -- Message-Id: {a06200701c773e99b855e-at-[66.81.42.247]} 1, 18 -- In-Reply-To: {201001131831.o0DIVNMT022111-at-ns.microscopy.com} 1, 18 -- References: {201001131831.o0DIVNMT022111-at-ns.microscopy.com} 1, 18 -- Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 13:30:20 -0800 1, 18 -- To: rgoddard-at-valdosta.edu 1, 18 -- From: Caroline Schooley {schooley-at-mcn.org} 1, 18 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] Blind Student in Biology Lab 1, 18 -- Cc: "Microscopy Listserver" {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 1, 18 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" ==============================End of - Headers==============================
==============================Original Headers============================== 9, 26 -- From John.Mardinly-at-wdc.com Thu Jan 14 10:57:14 2010 9, 26 -- Received: from wdscexfe01.sc.wdc.com (wdscexfe01.sc.wdc.com [129.253.170.53]) 9, 26 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0EGvEDQ003845 9, 26 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 10:57:14 -0600 9, 26 -- Received: from wdksjexbe01.msj.wdc.com ([172.19.100.67]) by wdscexfe01.sc.wdc.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); 9, 26 -- Thu, 14 Jan 2010 08:57:14 -0800 9, 26 -- X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 9, 26 -- Content-class: urn:content-classes:message 9, 26 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 9, 26 -- Content-Type: text/plain; 9, 26 -- charset="us-ascii" 9, 26 -- Subject: RE: [Microscopy] Re: Blind Student in Biology Lab 9, 26 -- Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 08:57:13 -0800 9, 26 -- Message-ID: {34061960C62E274C8AF1DCAA6565555805E119A5-at-wdksjexbe01.msj.wdc.com} 9, 26 -- In-Reply-To: {201001132139.o0DLdN8m018670-at-ns.microscopy.com} 9, 26 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: 9, 26 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 9, 26 -- Thread-Topic: [Microscopy] Re: Blind Student in Biology Lab 9, 26 -- Thread-Index: AcqUmOBk0vSERKP5S/6PTs9gQnuiLgAoUl0Q 9, 26 -- References: {201001132139.o0DLdN8m018670-at-ns.microscopy.com} 9, 26 -- From: "John Mardinly" {John.Mardinly-at-wdc.com} 9, 26 -- To: {schooley-at-mcn.org} 9, 26 -- Cc: {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 9, 26 -- X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jan 2010 16:57:14.0093 (UTC) FILETIME=[9EF441D0:01CA953A] 9, 26 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 9, 26 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0EGvEDQ003845 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
Hello A colleague is using our Leica microdissection system to isolate microglia for RNA extraction. The specimen is 5 um thick cryostat sections of paraformaldehyde fixed rat brain mounted on PEN film slides.
She needs to identify the cells to cut out by labeling with a biotinylated lectin but the the sections are coming off during the labeling steps.
Has anyone been able to overcome this problem by brand of PEN slides, subbing, prolonged drying...?
Thanks, Glen
Glen MacDonald Core for Communication Research Virginia Merrill Bloedel Hearing Research Center Box 357923 University of Washington Seattle, WA 98195-7923 USA (206) 616-4156 glenmac-at-uw.edu
==============================Original Headers============================== 15, 26 -- From glenmac-at-u.washington.edu Thu Jan 14 11:38:59 2010 15, 26 -- Received: from mxout1.cac.washington.edu (mxout1.cac.washington.edu [140.142.32.134]) 15, 26 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0EHcxLp028634 15, 26 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 11:38:59 -0600 15, 26 -- Received: from smtp.washington.edu (smtp.washington.edu [140.142.32.141] (may be forged)) 15, 26 -- by mxout1.cac.washington.edu (8.14.3+UW09.11/8.14.3+UW09.11) with ESMTP id o0EHaJYS007047 15, 26 -- (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) 15, 26 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 09:36:19 -0800 15, 26 -- X-Auth-Received: from d-128-95-178-152.dhcp4.washington.edu (D-128-95-178-152.dhcp4.washington.edu [128.95.178.152]) 15, 26 -- (authenticated authid=glenmac) 15, 26 -- by smtp.washington.edu (8.14.3+UW09.11/8.14.3+UW09.11) with ESMTP id o0EHaGZp005084 15, 26 -- (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) 15, 26 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 09:36:19 -0800 15, 26 -- From: Glen MacDonald {glenmac-at-u.washington.edu} 15, 26 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii 15, 26 -- Subject: PEN slides for microsdissection 15, 26 -- Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 09:36:15 -0800 15, 26 -- Message-Id: {D51EED04-BDAB-4406-8789-E1C458EC7ED7-at-u.washington.edu} 15, 26 -- To: "ListServer-at-MSA.Microscopy.Com Listserver" {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 15, 26 -- Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) 15, 26 -- X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) 15, 26 -- X-PMX-Version: 5.5.9.388399, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.376379, Antispam-Data: 2010.1.14.172416 15, 26 -- X-Uwash-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIIII, Probability=8%, Report=' 15, 26 -- SUPERLONG_LINE 0.05, BODY_SIZE_1000_LESS 0, BODY_SIZE_2000_LESS 0, BODY_SIZE_5000_LESS 0, BODY_SIZE_7000_LESS 0, BODY_SIZE_700_799 0, TO_NO_NAME 0, __C230066_P5 0, __CT 0, __CTE 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __HAS_X_MAILER 0, __MIME_TEXT_ONLY 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __MIME_VERSION_APPLEMAIL 0, __MSGID_APPLEMAIL 0, __SANE_MSGID 0, __TO_MALFORMED_2 0, __URI_NS , __USER_AGENT_APPLEMAIL 0, __X_MAILER_APPLEMAIL 0' 15, 26 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 15, 26 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0EHcxLp028634 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
Thanks for adding to what I have written. I often find here at RPI, also an academic environment that the skills and knowledge a user brings into the training that is provided helps them go much farther in the quality of the images they produce. It also helps if they are interested in learning more than steps 1 through 20 in how to get an image. Understanding the "basics" of electron microscopy is a must.
X-from my prior experience as an applications person for a microscope company, we often made many assumptions to the user's basic knowledge of electron microscopy. As an aps person, we didn't always have time to fully educate the customer on the "basics" of electron microscopy, we had 2 or 3 days to get them to "know" their microscope, and then we off to home and our families or on to the next customer.
I do like the fact that there is some requirement at Purdue for the users to have a full credit course and lab behind them before they have full access to the systems. Here at RPI there are a few people trying to push that sort of requirement forward. I just always remind each user as they get trained that they can always call, asking for help is good, and no question is a stupid question.
One last idea I'd like to offer is that I take their science away from them when teaching users to use the microscope. I make them look at my samples, and they are focused on learning the basics, the controls, and the microscope itself. They aren't asking why didn't my experiment work, they are asking how do I make the picture better.
I offer that we should take the following conclusion away from this discussion: Microscope vendors train users to user their products. They aren't always to best source of basic electron microscopy education. (I think the Norm Burns said this often at Cambridge/LEICA/LEO/Zeiss). As a vendor we should leave it to the likes of Steve, Lehigh, or the old PASEM course, or the New Paltz course at the Mountain House, or the classes offered at our respective/favorite academic intuitions of choice. The microscope vendors have a wonderful pool of knowledgeable people who are tasked with selling and supporting a very technical product. At the end of the day, month, or year the bottom line to microscope vendors is how many did we sell, and how many happy customers do we have.*
David
* You can look at this as if it is driver's education, you don't see Ford, or VW teaching driver's education, they sell cars. When you pick up your new car they'll show you the basics, where the key goes, and such but it is assumed you know the rules of the road and have driver's license. :)
M. David Frey Senior Application Engineer Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute Low Center for Industrial Inn. Center for Integrated Electronics 110 8th Street CII 4161 (Office) CII 6015 (Packages and Mail) Troy, NY 12180 518-276-3323 (office) 518-698-2288 (mobile)
-----Original Message----- X-from: Sherman, Debra M [mailto:dsherman-at-purdue.edu] Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 1:25 PM To: freym2-at-rpi.edu
} Postdoctoral position to work in the ARC Centre of Excellence for } Coherent X-ray Science. (http://www.coecxs.org/) } } Research Officer } La Trobe Institute for Molecular Science } Level A/B Research Position in the Department of Biochemistry } La Trobe Institute for Molecular Science } This position will attract a remuneration package of approx. $70,200 } to $96,100 per annum, which includes 17% superannuation. } } Background: } This position is funded by the Australian Research Council as part } of the Centre of Excellence for Coherent X-ray Science (CXS) for } research into the use of novel imaging techniques to study the } cellular architecture of malaria parasite-infected erythrocytes. The } CXS is an interdisciplinary collaboration for high-resolution } bio-imaging. The project involves developing new methods and } applying existing cutting edge techniques for light, electron and } X-ray microscopy. The successful applicant will work with colleagues } from the Departments of Biochemistry and Physics at La Trobe } University. Molecular and cell biological manipulation of samples } will be used to enhance specimen preparation. } } Primary Objectives: } This work aims to develop sample preparation protocols suitable for } high resolution imaging and to use these methods to obtain } information about the cellular architecture of parasitised erythrocytes. } } In particular, we aim: } (1) To develop sample preparation methods for transmission electron } microscopy and cryo electron microscopy } (2) To use electron tomography to image cell samples } (2) To use X-ray microscopy to image samples } (3) To use X-ray methods to examine the sub-cellular distribution } and organisation of structures in malaria parasites and other samples } (4) To use and develop super-resolution optical microscopy methods } } Further information, } Contact: Prof. Leann Tilley. Tel: 03-9479 1375. Email: } L.Tilley-at-latrobe.edu.au } http://www.latrobe.edu.au/biochemistry/lab/tilley/index.htm } Closing date for applications: mid February, 2010
Leann Tilley, Professor of Biochemistry Director of Research, La Trobe Institute for Molecular Science Deputy Director, ARC Centre of Excellence for Coherent X-ray Science
Department of Biochemistry Phone: 61-3-94791375 Rm 407, Phys Sci Bld 4 Fax: 61-3-94792467 Plenty Rd, La Trobe University Email: L.Tilley-at-latrobe.edu.au Melbourne, 3086, Australia http://www.latrobe.edu.au/biochemistry/lab/tilley/index.htm
==============================Original Headers============================== 7, 21 -- From L.Tilley-at-latrobe.edu.au Thu Jan 14 13:47:26 2010 7, 21 -- Received: from owa1.ltu.edu.au (owa1.ltu.edu.au [131.172.7.14]) 7, 21 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0EJlPWP030082 7, 21 -- for {Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com} ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 13:47:25 -0600 7, 21 -- Received: from STEXCHANGE.students.ltu.edu.au ([131.172.7.31]) by owa1.ltu.edu.au with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); 7, 21 -- Fri, 15 Jan 2010 06:47:14 +1100 7, 21 -- Received: from HTCAS1.ltu.edu.au ([131.172.7.37]) by STEXCHANGE.students.ltu.edu.au with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); 7, 21 -- Fri, 15 Jan 2010 06:47:13 +1100 7, 21 -- Received: from bclmt003lt.ltu.edu.au (149.144.218.174) by HTCas1.ltu.edu.au 7, 21 -- (131.172.7.36) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.213.0; Fri, 15 Jan 7, 21 -- 2010 06:47:13 +1100 7, 21 -- X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 7, 21 -- Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 06:47:13 +1100 7, 21 -- To: {Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com} 7, 21 -- From: Leann Tilley {l.tilley-at-latrobe.edu.au} 7, 21 -- Subject: Postdoctoral position to work on High Resolution Imaging in 7, 21 -- Australia 7, 21 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 7, 21 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed 7, 21 -- Message-ID: {eb834ea6-5cf5-4267-973f-4e9a97831bf3-at-HTCAS1.ltu.edu.au} 7, 21 -- X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jan 2010 19:47:13.0890 (UTC) FILETIME=[5E81C420:01CA9552] ==============================End of - Headers==============================
Job Title: Advanced Analytical TEM Laboratory Support Scientist Job ID: 31065 Location: National High Magnetic Field Laboratory at Florida State University, Tallahassee, FL
In conjunction with the recent purchase of a new JEM-ARM200F Atomic Resolution Analytical TEM we have an opening for a TEM Laboratory Support Scientist.
Qualifications: Advanced University degree(Master's or higher) and at least four years of demonstrated experience.
Responsibilities:
*Interacting, assisting and training users for routine operation of the TEM/STEM microscopes and related sample preparation equipment. *Performing routine maintenance and essential repair of the microscopes and related sample preparation equipment (major equipment is under service contract). *Managing routine operation, including logs, bookkeeping, billing, maintenance records, inventory, and consumables purchases. *Making recommendations and assist in the purchase of new equipment. *Participating in the microscopy community and related research activities. *Preparing monthly and annual reports concerning the TEM Laboratory and participate in all required review meetings. *Providing outreach and tours for the general public.
More information and the on-line application (Job ID 31065) is available at https://jobs.fsu.edu The NHMFL web site can be found at: http://www.magnet.fsu.edu/ A partial listing of existing analytical facilities at NHMFL can be found at: http://www.magnet.fsu.edu/magnettechnology/research/materials/microanalysi s/index.html
==============================Original Headers============================== 5, 29 -- From lee-at-asc.magnet.fsu.edu Thu Jan 14 14:00:51 2010 5, 29 -- Received: from zm1.magnet.fsu.edu (zm1.magnet.fsu.edu [146.201.250.62]) 5, 29 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0EK0p2k013664 5, 29 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 14:00:51 -0600 5, 29 -- Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) 5, 29 -- by zm1.magnet.fsu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E89261801C 5, 29 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 15:00:51 -0500 (EST) 5, 29 -- X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zm1.magnet.fsu.edu 5, 29 -- Received: from zm1.magnet.fsu.edu ([127.0.0.1]) 5, 29 -- by localhost (zm1.magnet.fsu.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) 5, 29 -- with ESMTP id ndkCHV-H0zcI for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; 5, 29 -- Thu, 14 Jan 2010 15:00:47 -0500 (EST) 5, 29 -- Received: from zm1.magnet.fsu.edu (zm1.magnet.fsu.edu [146.201.250.62]) 5, 29 -- by zm1.magnet.fsu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 276F8618068 5, 29 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 15:00:47 -0500 (EST) 5, 29 -- From: "Peter Lee" {lee-at-asc.magnet.fsu.edu} 5, 29 -- To: {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 5, 29 -- Subject: TEM Laboratory Support Scientist Position Open at FSU 5, 29 -- Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 15:00:47 -0500 (EST) 5, 29 -- Message-ID: {00b901ca9554$3f3f3960$bdbdac20$-at-magnet.fsu.edu} 5, 29 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 5, 29 -- Content-Type: text/plain; 5, 29 -- charset="us-ascii" 5, 29 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 5, 29 -- X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 5, 29 -- X-Mailer: Zimbra 5.0.20_GA_3127.RHEL5_64 (ZimbraConnectorForOutlook/5.0.3191.20) 5, 29 -- Thread-Index: AcqVVD6+M/lb51e4TV6SHCXDb38uqw== 5, 29 -- Content-Language: en-us 5, 29 -- X-Originating-IP: [146.201.213.181] ==============================End of - Headers==============================
I agree with all that you mention and I think it is important as a vendor to work hard on judging your customer.
If I run a basic residential course very few wish to attend, but run an advanced course and that creates interest. However when I start this course from the same data that is in the basic course the "advanced" users are fascinated because they too did not know! What I think we may be saying is that not all customers are up to speed on SEM in general and therefore it is tough for them to understand a State of the Art instrument.
But back to my first email. When you sell a State of the Art piece of equipment you owe it to your client to bring them up to State of the Art or in my mind what is the point of selling the equipment? All of us who have been in the business know that the more you sell, the more you sell. With that aim the better trained your new customer is the more papers they will write and the good name of your product is enhanced. That was the philosophy with which I had always worked and operating as I do now, often through personal recommendation, I agree it is important to "do a good job".
Lets await more comment
Steve
-----Original Message----- X-from: freym2-at-rpi.edu [mailto:freym2-at-rpi.edu] Sent: 14 January 2010 19:33 To: protrain-at-emcourses.com
Debby,
Thanks for adding to what I have written. I often find here at RPI, also an academic environment that the skills and knowledge a user brings into the training that is provided helps them go much farther in the quality of the images they produce. It also helps if they are interested in learning more than steps 1 through 20 in how to get an image. Understanding the "basics" of electron microscopy is a must.
X-from my prior experience as an applications person for a microscope company, we often made many assumptions to the user's basic knowledge of electron microscopy. As an aps person, we didn't always have time to fully educate the customer on the "basics" of electron microscopy, we had 2 or 3 days to get them to "know" their microscope, and then we off to home and our families or on to the next customer.
I do like the fact that there is some requirement at Purdue for the users to have a full credit course and lab behind them before they have full access to the systems. Here at RPI there are a few people trying to push that sort of requirement forward. I just always remind each user as they get trained that they can always call, asking for help is good, and no question is a stupid question.
One last idea I'd like to offer is that I take their science away from them when teaching users to use the microscope. I make them look at my samples, and they are focused on learning the basics, the controls, and the microscope itself. They aren't asking why didn't my experiment work, they are asking how do I make the picture better.
I offer that we should take the following conclusion away from this discussion: Microscope vendors train users to user their products. They aren't always to best source of basic electron microscopy education. (I think the Norm Burns said this often at Cambridge/LEICA/LEO/Zeiss). As a vendor we should leave it to the likes of Steve, Lehigh, or the old PASEM course, or the New Paltz course at the Mountain House, or the classes offered at our respective/favorite academic intuitions of choice. The microscope vendors have a wonderful pool of knowledgeable people who are tasked with selling and supporting a very technical product. At the end of the day, month, or year the bottom line to microscope vendors is how many did we sell, and how many happy customers do we have.*
David
* You can look at this as if it is driver's education, you don't see Ford, or VW teaching driver's education, they sell cars. When you pick up your new car they'll show you the basics, where the key goes, and such but it is assumed you know the rules of the road and have driver's license. :)
M. David Frey Senior Application Engineer Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute Low Center for Industrial Inn. Center for Integrated Electronics 110 8th Street CII 4161 (Office) CII 6015 (Packages and Mail) Troy, NY 12180 518-276-3323 (office) 518-698-2288 (mobile)
-----Original Message----- X-from: Sherman, Debra M [mailto:dsherman-at-purdue.edu] Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 1:25 PM To: freym2-at-rpi.edu
Dear All Could you direct me to short courses, ideally hands-on, that focus on biological sample preparation for TEM and TEM imaging of Biological Samples? I'd like to generate a list for my facility. Best Regards Mary
-- Mary Raven Integrated Microscopy Facility Director Neuroscience Research Institute & Molecular, Cellular & Developmental Biology The University of California Santa Barbara, CA 93106-5060
We will provide custom training in-house on your samples in any area of EM we have the equipment to handle. We have done intensive 1-2 week sessions with individuals in the past and also will work with small groups, if needed. We pretty much tailor everything to the client's personal needs, so costs highly variable.
Cheers, Randy
Randy Tindall Senior EM Specialist Electron Microscopy Core Facility---We Do Small Well! W125 Veterinary Medicine University of Missouri Columbia, MO 65211 Tel: (573) 882-8304 Fax: (573) 884-2227 Email: tindallr-at-missouri.edu Web: http://www.emc.missouri.edu On-line calendar: http://biotech.rnet.missouri.edu/cgi-bin/Calcium310.pl?Op=Splash&Amount=Week&NavType=Both&Type=TimePlan Sons of Norway: http://www.sofn.com
-----Original Message----- X-from: m_raven-at-lifesci.ucsb.edu [mailto:m_raven-at-lifesci.ucsb.edu] Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 3:51 PM To: Tindall, Randy D.
Dear All Could you direct me to short courses, ideally hands-on, that focus on biological sample preparation for TEM and TEM imaging of Biological Samples? I'd like to generate a list for my facility. Best Regards Mary
-- Mary Raven Integrated Microscopy Facility Director Neuroscience Research Institute & Molecular, Cellular & Developmental Biology The University of California Santa Barbara, CA 93106-5060
I think David is right on as to the expectations of many users. Many are constantly under time-pressure and will work to provide the best they can in the limited time available and just do not have time to try lots of variables to get the best possible image. I do not condone this but do understand it.
I work in an academic environment where we have lots of researchers (mainly graduate students) who treat EM as an occasional technique to supplement to their primary research tools. This is fine to a point. If the images are poor than the reflect poorly on the student, the major professor, the lab where they were generated (me!!), and the institution.
We require students take a for-credit graduate-level course on TEM (or SEM) theory and the hands-on lab in order to have the "privilege" for independent access to the instruments. This gets through the first step of making sure all users have the basic information to make informed decisions about imaging parameters, sample preparation, and an introduction to the ethics of image processing, interpretation, etc. However, once the course is over and the students are on their own, it is their choice as to how careful they are in acquiring the best possible images and correctly interpreting those images.
Some are very good about asking for help and they are the ones who normally will do well and produce excellent images consistently. Some are naturals who absorb all they are taught and just have a knack for good imaging. Then there are those who never ask for help, know it all, and only want to work in the middle of the night when there is no one around for help. Those are the ones who often do not do as well.
This goes back to the recent string on our responsibility for data. It is out of our hands and we can only hope that we have laid down a solid foundation of knowledge through formal courses and follow-up when asked. Then it is up to the microscopist as to if or how they use that knowledge.
Debby
-- Debby Sherman, Director Phone: 765-494-6666 Life Science Microscopy Facility FAX: 765-494-5896 Purdue University E-mail: dsherman-at-purdue.edu S-052 Whistler Building 170 S. University Street West Lafayette, IN 47907 http://www.ag.purdue.edu/facilities/microscopy/
} From: "freym2-at-rpi.edu" {freym2-at-rpi.edu} } Reply-To: "freym2-at-rpi.edu" {freym2-at-rpi.edu} } Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 11:55:31 -0500 } To: Debby Sherman {dsherman-at-purdue.edu} } Subject: [Microscopy] RE: State of the Art SEM } } } } } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of America } To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver } On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } Hi Steve, } } It is a very interesting point you bring up. I spent nearly 10 years working } for one the manufactures of High res- FESEM's as an applications specialist. } The topics/concepts that were emphasized in training were often driven by } the demands of the customer. This seemed to be more true in an onsite } training rather than those we would provide to a mixed group (people from } different companies) at our offices/demo labs. This maybe right or wrong } depending on where you stand on the following statements, "The customer } doesn't know either what he really wants, or what he really needs." And the } "Customer is always right." I think that it is often the case that the } applications people are being driven by trying to meet the customers } demands/expectations, "I purchased a HI-RES FESEM, I demand HI-RES 100% of } the time." Many of the FESEM's that we sold were into an "industrial" } environment where good and knowledgeable people were always under the gun, } and had an end result they needed to meet. Good images of something either } good or bad, and lots of them. One of our first obligations to the customer } was making sure they could do their job, and meet their employers' } expectations. I always made sure that the people I was training were told of } the items you mentioned. I think that if you neglect educating the customer } about what all the options they have on their systems you are doing them a } disservice ("options" is equal to "detectors" in the case). You are not } fulfilling your contract/agreement with the customer to provide them with } the education they need to get the most out of the product you have sold to } them. It is important to remember that there are at the very least 2 } detectors available, and they will provide different } images/data/perspectives of the same feature. It is a good idea to take } advantage of them. Often users are more focused on treating the SEM in } general as a camera (point and shoot) for getting an image of their } preconceived ideal/or not so ideal features/defects. Many users, not all, } (readers of this list are an exception) forget that they are using a tunable } microscope capable of scientific discovery. The SEM (FESEM) is dynamic } system. A system where when parameters are changed different information is } made visible and available. Learning about your SEM (FESEM) is a life long } journey. } } To this idea I add the following. This morning I encountered one of my } newer/less experienced users on my FESEM in our clean room here at RPI, and } he complained that the images he was getting weren't as good as those his } company was getting from a contract lab. (He has less than 10 hours on the } system.) After spending some time with him, and showing him a few things, } and changing some parameters he said "I didn't think I could do this." I } think newer users are often driven to get lots of data/images quickly, and } they don't always remember or to take the time, to change a few things. They } don't try to see if they can make an image better with different } conditions/detectors. They are either afraid to take a bad picture, think } outside the box, or see what all different "knobs and buttons" do. Changing } parameters isn't going to break the machine. Today, images aren't costing 2 } dollars a sheet. If the picture is bad, hit delete and move on and take a } new one. } } The bottom line here is that I think the applications people at the major } microscope companies try and teach customers all they need to know. Do they } (the customers) hear and absorb it all? Not likely. We are all at fault in } this area that's why it is a good practice to take notes when learning about } new things. Education on any subject should be a life long endeavor. You } should never be satisfied with your skills and knowledge. One should always } be striving toward self betterment and the expansion of your knowledge and } skill. I hope my views (and they are mine alone), add a useful voice to the } topic you want to address. } } Regards, } } David } } M. David Frey } Senior Application Engineer } Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute } Low Center for Industrial Inn. } Center for Integrated Electronics } 110 8th Street } CII 4161 (Office) } CII 6015 (Packages and Mail) } Troy, NY 12180 } 518-276-3323 (office) } 518-698-2288 (mobile) } -----Original Message----- } X-from: protrain-at-emcourses.com [mailto:protrain-at-emcourses.com] } Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 9:41 AM } To: freym2-at-rpi.edu } Subject: [Microscopy] State of the Art SEM } } } } } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of America } To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver } On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } Hi Listers } } Pre Christmas I spent several months south of the Equator working with some } very good scientists on state of the art SEM. All of these instruments were } FEG, with both in and out of lens secondary electron detectors. Having } spent the last week writing up reports it suddenly struck me that the } techniques I introduced should have been part of the standard training for } this type of instrument. } } I was one of the first people in the world to run a double detector } instrument when I worked on a pre production SS Series instrument at ISI. } My task was to look at all the options made available with a double detector } instrument, the advantages and disadvantages of the different detectors with } different types of specimen. With that information, as I gradually } developed an understanding of the generation of the signals I was receiving, } I was able to acquire exactly the signal mix which optimised the image for } the task in hand. } } Over these past months it was very clear that the people I worked with just } knew that using the upper and short working distances gave them high } resolution, the subtleties of double detection instruments were unknown } because they had not been taught how to use the instrument correctly. I } think of the state of the art SEM as a racing car; my other life. There are } times, when it is easy to do so, that you go flat out because you have so } much potential, but there are other times when flat out makes the task much } more difficult. That is state of the art SEM, you have so much resolution } available but you really need other instrument attributes to obtain the } perfect image. So often I witnessed a quest for resolution when, with the } potential of the instrument, the chronic charging of the specimen should } have taken priority and I don't just mean turning down the accelerating } voltage. } } So the point of this note, do people suffer from the same problems in the } northern hemisphere in that the subtleties of operation are ignored when } manufacturers train operators on state of the art FEG SEM? There are more } FEG SEM in the northern hemisphere so does that mean the knowledge of the } manufacturer's staff is of a higher level? } } Thoughts? } } Steve Chapman FRMS } Senior Consultant Protrain } For consultancy and training in electron microscopy world wide } Tel +44 (0)1280 816512 Fax +44 (0)1280 814007 Cell +44 (0)7711 606967 } www.emcourses.com } } } } ==============================Original Headers============================== } 9, 27 -- From protrain-at-emcourses.com Thu Jan 14 08:32:56 2010 } 9, 27 -- Received: from smtp01.dial-up.net (smtp01.dial-up.net } [196.26.208.170]) } 9, 27 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id } o0EEWtMd012756 } 9, 27 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 08:32:56 } -0600 } 9, 27 -- Received: from 5ac8bf0c.bb.sky.com ([90.200.191.12]:51699 } helo=ProtrainPC) } 9, 27 -- by smtp01.dial-up.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.68 #0) } 9, 27 -- (envelope-from {protrain-at-emcourses.com} ) } 9, 27 -- id 1NVQkn-0002s8-Kx by authid } {09b79efaf87c50cb314d7cc58a4aab80} with fixed_login } 9, 27 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 16:32:54 } +0200 } 9, 27 -- Reply-To: {protrain-at-emcourses.com} } 9, 27 -- From: "Steve Chapman" {protrain-at-emcourses.com} } 9, 27 -- To: "Microscopical Soc of America" {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} } 9, 27 -- References: {201001121258.o0CCwNKS012795-at-ns.microscopy.com} } 9, 27 -- In-Reply-To: {201001121258.o0CCwNKS012795-at-ns.microscopy.com} } 9, 27 -- Subject: State of the Art SEM } 9, 27 -- Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 14:32:21 -0000 } 9, 27 -- Organization: Protrain } 9, 27 -- Message-ID: {000601ca9526$700fa5d0$502ef170$-at-com} } 9, 27 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 } 9, 27 -- Content-Type: text/plain; } 9, 27 -- charset="us-ascii" } 9, 27 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit } 9, 27 -- X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 } 9, 27 -- Thread-Index: AcqThvilAzVfdgXBQyKxsKFZAOTyFwBnz7ww } 9, 27 -- Content-Language: en-gb } 9, 27 -- X-Scan-Signature: 765847b7b841c94ad8139cf44bd53835{47}} } 9, 27 -- X-Trace: smtp01.dial-up.net 1NVQkn-0002s8-Kx } 8dd36d0d7559cb2098d703edc4baee46 } ==============================End of - Headers============================== } } } } } ==============================Original Headers============================== } 23, 26 -- From freym2-at-rpi.edu Thu Jan 14 10:53:44 2010 } 23, 26 -- Received: from smtp7.server.rpi.edu (smtp7.server.rpi.edu } [128.113.2.227]) } 23, 26 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id } o0EGrhQ3030784 } 23, 26 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 10:53:43 -0600 } 23, 26 -- Received: from Frey (sponge-bob-13.dynamic.rpi.edu [128.113.222.52]) } 23, 26 -- by smtp7.server.rpi.edu (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id } o0EGrdPY023783 } 23, 26 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 11:53:42 -0500 } 23, 26 -- From: "M. David Frey" {freym2-at-rpi.edu} } 23, 26 -- To: {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} } 23, 26 -- References: {201001141440.o0EEemih020605-at-ns.microscopy.com} } 23, 26 -- Subject: RE: [Microscopy] State of the Art SEM } 23, 26 -- Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 11:53:38 -0500 } 23, 26 -- Message-ID: {67D44C9134F24725852345C8CD39D923-at-Frey} } 23, 26 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 } 23, 26 -- Content-Type: text/plain; } 23, 26 -- charset="us-ascii" } 23, 26 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit } 23, 26 -- X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 } 23, 26 -- Thread-Index: AcqVJ5DaN7oqnnhFQtS98gnoCy3f2QABCN8g } 23, 26 -- X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 } 23, 26 -- In-Reply-To: {201001141440.o0EEemih020605-at-ns.microscopy.com} } 23, 26 -- X-Bayes-Prob: 0.0001 (Score 0) } 23, 26 -- X-RPI-SA-Score: 0.00 () [Hold at 20.00] ADVANCE_FEE_1,22490(-25) } 23, 26 -- X-CanItPRO-Stream: outgoing } 23, 26 -- X-Canit-Stats-ID: Bayes signature not available } 23, 26 -- X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) on 128.113.2.227 } ==============================End of - Headers==============================
==============================Original Headers============================== 11, 31 -- From dsherman-at-purdue.edu Thu Jan 14 18:14:31 2010 11, 31 -- Received: from mailhub128.itcs.purdue.edu (mailhub128.itcs.purdue.edu [128.210.5.128]) 11, 31 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0F0EVVN029481 11, 31 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 18:14:31 -0600 11, 31 -- Received: from mailhub127.itcs.purdue.edu (mailhub127.itcs.purdue.edu [128.210.5.127]) 11, 31 -- by mailhub128.itcs.purdue.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2/smtp-nopmx) with ESMTP id o0F0EUj7004444 11, 31 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 19:14:31 -0500 11, 31 -- Received: from WPPEXHUB04H.purdue.lcl (wppexhub04h.itap.purdue.edu [172.21.6.93]) 11, 31 -- by mailhub127.itcs.purdue.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2/exchange-outbound) with ESMTP id o0F0EUfH006460 11, 31 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 19:14:30 -0500 11, 31 -- Received: from VPEXCH04.purdue.lcl ([169.254.2.93]) by WPPEXHUB04H.purdue.lcl 11, 31 -- ([::1]) with mapi; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 19:14:30 -0500 11, 31 -- From: "Sherman, Debra M" {dsherman-at-purdue.edu} 11, 31 -- To: "message to: MSA list" {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 11, 31 -- Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 19:14:29 -0500 11, 31 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] RE: State of the Art SEM 11, 31 -- Thread-Topic: [Microscopy] RE: State of the Art SEM 11, 31 -- Thread-Index: AcqVOmNW9CYKarFBSMy83sgerw5KmAAPVDVM 11, 31 -- Message-ID: {C7751D95.346A%dsherman-at-purdue.edu} 11, 31 -- Accept-Language: en-US 11, 31 -- Content-Language: en-US 11, 31 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: 11, 31 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 11, 31 -- user-agent: Microsoft-Entourage/13.3.0.091002 11, 31 -- acceptlanguage: en-US 11, 31 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 11, 31 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 11, 31 -- X-PMX-Version: 5.5.7.378829 11, 31 -- X-PerlMx-Virus-Scanned: Yes 11, 31 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 11, 31 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0F0EVVN029481 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
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I am an amateur naturalist, and I'm looking for an used microtome, but working, even on old model, to be used for histological sections of samples included in paraffin. Please can anyone give me useful directions where to find it?
I inherited several old diamond knives from a faculty who is retiring. The knives include one from SAG International (Italy), one Sakura Sapphatome (Japan) and a couple from Dupon. My question is:
Is there a way I can check to see which one is sharp and still good to use?
Thank you,
Zhaojie
Zhaojie Zhang, Ph.D. Director, Microscopy Core Facility Department of Zoology and Physiology University of Wyoming Laramie, WY 82071 zzhang-at-uwyo.edu 307-766-3038
==============================Original Headers============================== 9, 27 -- From ZZhang-at-uwyo.edu Fri Jan 15 09:46:02 2010 9, 27 -- Received: from aspensprings.uwyo.edu (aspensprings.uwyo.edu [129.72.10.32]) 9, 27 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0FFk27B021457 9, 27 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 09:46:02 -0600 9, 27 -- Received: from ponyexpress-ht2.uwyo.edu (ponyexpress-ht2.uwyo.edu [10.84.60.209]) 9, 27 -- by aspensprings.uwyo.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o0FFil3F008690 9, 27 -- (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) 9, 27 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 08:46:01 -0700 (MST) 9, 27 -- (envelope-from ZZhang-at-uwyo.edu) 9, 27 -- Received: from ponyexpress-mb2.uwyo.edu ([10.84.60.213]) by ponyexpress-ht2 9, 27 -- ([10.84.60.209]) with mapi; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 08:45:35 -0700 9, 27 -- From: "Z.J. Zhang" {ZZhang-at-uwyo.edu} 9, 27 -- To: "microscopy-at-microscopy.com" {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 9, 27 -- Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 08:45:33 -0700 9, 27 -- Subject: old diamond knives 9, 27 -- Thread-Topic: old diamond knives 9, 27 -- Thread-Index: AcqV+Xdn854ibro3Q7SAN6lPGFJuVQAADHng 9, 27 -- Message-ID: {8E12868E4E3D65439AEC1BAAF2BF60BE9AE9C39E-at-ponyexpress-mb2} 9, 27 -- Accept-Language: en-US 9, 27 -- Content-Language: en-US 9, 27 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: 9, 27 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 9, 27 -- acceptlanguage: en-US 9, 27 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 9, 27 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 9, 27 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 9, 27 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0FFk27B021457 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
I've received several responses within minutes of my posting, suggesting the same thing - try to section with the old knife.
I guess I was hoping to find an "easier and quicker" way for this, like a magic wand. It apparently does not exist (!?).
Thank you all, again.
Zhaojie
-----Original Message----- X-from: Haller, Edward [mailto:ehaller-at-health.usf.edu] Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 9:16 AM To: Z.J. Zhang
Hi all:
I inherited several old diamond knives from a faculty who is retiring. The knives include one from SAG International (Italy), one Sakura Sapphatome (Japan) and a couple from Dupon. My question is:
Is there a way I can check to see which one is sharp and still good to use?
Thank you,
Zhaojie
Zhaojie Zhang, Ph.D. Director, Microscopy Core Facility Department of Zoology and Physiology University of Wyoming Laramie, WY 82071 zzhang-at-uwyo.edu 307-766-3038
==============================Original Headers============================== 9, 27 -- From ZZhang-at-uwyo.edu Fri Jan 15 09:46:02 2010 9, 27 -- Received: from aspensprings.uwyo.edu (aspensprings.uwyo.edu [129.72.10.32]) 9, 27 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0FFk27B021457 9, 27 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 09:46:02 -0600 9, 27 -- Received: from ponyexpress-ht2.uwyo.edu (ponyexpress-ht2.uwyo.edu [10.84.60.209]) 9, 27 -- by aspensprings.uwyo.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o0FFil3F008690 9, 27 -- (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) 9, 27 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 08:46:01 -0700 (MST) 9, 27 -- (envelope-from ZZhang-at-uwyo.edu) 9, 27 -- Received: from ponyexpress-mb2.uwyo.edu ([10.84.60.213]) by ponyexpress-ht2 9, 27 -- ([10.84.60.209]) with mapi; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 08:45:35 -0700 9, 27 -- From: "Z.J. Zhang" {ZZhang-at-uwyo.edu} 9, 27 -- To: "microscopy-at-microscopy.com" {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 9, 27 -- Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 08:45:33 -0700 9, 27 -- Subject: old diamond knives 9, 27 -- Thread-Topic: old diamond knives 9, 27 -- Thread-Index: AcqV+Xdn854ibro3Q7SAN6lPGFJuVQAADHng 9, 27 -- Message-ID: {8E12868E4E3D65439AEC1BAAF2BF60BE9AE9C39E-at-ponyexpress-mb2} 9, 27 -- Accept-Language: en-US 9, 27 -- Content-Language: en-US 9, 27 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: 9, 27 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 9, 27 -- acceptlanguage: en-US 9, 27 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 9, 27 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 9, 27 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 9, 27 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0FFk27B021457 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
==============================Original Headers============================== 23, 32 -- From ZZhang-at-uwyo.edu Fri Jan 15 10:54:44 2010 23, 32 -- Received: from aspensprings.uwyo.edu (aspensprings.uwyo.edu [129.72.10.32]) 23, 32 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0FGse7p005540 23, 32 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 10:54:41 -0600 23, 32 -- Received: from ponyexpress-ht1.uwyo.edu (ponyexpress-ht1.uwyo.edu [10.84.60.208]) 23, 32 -- by aspensprings.uwyo.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o0FGqxlV008139 23, 32 -- (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); 23, 32 -- Fri, 15 Jan 2010 09:53:51 -0700 (MST) 23, 32 -- (envelope-from ZZhang-at-uwyo.edu) 23, 32 -- Received: from ponyexpress-mb2.uwyo.edu ([10.84.60.213]) by ponyexpress-ht1 23, 32 -- ([10.84.60.208]) with mapi; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 09:53:47 -0700 23, 32 -- From: "Z.J. Zhang" {ZZhang-at-uwyo.edu} 23, 32 -- To: "Haller, Edward" {ehaller-at-health.usf.edu} , 23, 32 -- "microscopy-at-microscopy.com" 23, 32 -- {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 23, 32 -- Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 09:53:42 -0700 23, 32 -- Subject: RE: [Microscopy] old diamond knives 23, 32 -- Thread-Topic: [Microscopy] old diamond knives 23, 32 -- Thread-Index: AcqV+yPd4zIoxrVjSq+dbINlmfl3WgAAu7uDAACLlHA= 23, 32 -- Message-ID: {8E12868E4E3D65439AEC1BAAF2BF60BE9AE9C44D-at-ponyexpress-mb2} 23, 32 -- References: {201001151555.o0FFtJHu002006-at-ns.microscopy.com} 23, 32 -- {BC9AA3BAFEC5BE498E1E35C01EFAA8EF1A9BD71623-at-MAILSERVER2.hscnet.hsc.usf.edu} 23, 32 -- In-Reply-To: {BC9AA3BAFEC5BE498E1E35C01EFAA8EF1A9BD71623-at-MAILSERVER2.hscnet.hsc.usf.edu} 23, 32 -- Accept-Language: en-US 23, 32 -- Content-Language: en-US 23, 32 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: 23, 32 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 23, 32 -- acceptlanguage: en-US 23, 32 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 23, 32 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 23, 32 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 23, 32 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0FGse7p005540 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
I think in my first post you missed the part where I wrote that as a vendor we made sure that the customer was shown all of the options/detectors on their new systems. We would have failed at our jobs and our commitment to the customer if we did not show them these items. As a provider of a complex system such as a SEM, we had one focus and that focus was to make sure the customer got the best out of their new microscope. We were not there to teach the basics of electron microscopy (EM). We did, and do judge a customer's level of proficiency, but generally the extent of our basic EM educational responsibilities came to making sure the customer understands the most basic relationships one needs to grasp in order to get the most out of their new microscope. In a 2-3 day training with new a digital windows based SEM control system there are so many different items to teach the user about, spending a half a day to 1 day on the basic foundations of EM would rob the customer of seeing entire feature sets that make the SEM a solution. As a vendor we needed to help solve their problems, answer their questions, make their work flow better. We did spend a great deal of time on the detectors and how to get the best images from each of them. We also needed to show them automation SW, image processing, stage navigation, scripting sw, interfaces to external systems, and the list continues...You can not learn in 2 days or even 5 days all there is to learn about EM, it is a lifetime vocation or dare I even say devotion. Some people have been at it their entire lives, and still learn new things every single day. Isn't that what attracts us to this field, is the fact that there is more to learn then we might ever learn in our entire lives...
So if we boil your initial post down to the following statement/question "Do microscope vendors take the time to show users all the detectors and how to get the best out of them?" The answer would be an unequivocal "YES!" We (and I should write "They", since I am no longer working for one of them.) wouldn't stay in business if we (they) didn't. Just saying "yes" is a rather boring answer that does not create discussion amongst our peers as to the best way to educate ourselves and those that we are charged with educating about how to get the most out of your NEW STATE OF THE ART SEM. I guess we need to pay people to come and show us what we can't figure out through reading a manual, or a book, by flipping the "switches" and changing parameters, or maybe by even calling the people that sold you the system and saying, "the image from my lower detector is terrible, how do I make it better, I can't figure it out. I need your help." For either the cost of a phone call or the time to compose an email and attach a file to the sales rep who sold the system, you will get the help you need. The sales rep will help to get you in touch with someone who will answer your question or help to solve your problem. (Veeco was great about this with the 4 year old AFM I inherited when I got here, knowing nothing about AFM. Now I am competent at AFM, and still learning everyday.) You could also use this wonderful list server to get advice and guidance from your peers.
The reality in the business of technical education is if people don't seek out constant growth and knowledge expansion, their skills will never improve. You should never be satisfied with your level of skill, and knowledge. Once you stop learning and discovering it is time to move on and do something new.
I think that many customers (and I mean no offense to anyone in writing this), get the basic orientation from their service rep to what things do on their shiny NEW STATE OF THE ART SEM, and they think my skill level, and education is good enough to do the rest. For some this is true for others they might miss out on a few things. Often customers don't want to, or can't (more times than not it is can't) spend the money to travel to the demonstration laboratories, of the microscope companies, so they miss out on the initial user trainings where for the cost of a plane ticket, and few nights in a hotel, learn all the things they already know and some new things they need to know about their shiny new SEM. If you think about the amount of money they have just spent on their new microscope, the cost to attend the training or get an on-site training is a small fraction of what they have just spent. There were many occasions when we sent introduction letters to customers that gave them the dates for the in-house training classes, and never got any response. We would only hear from that customer if they were unhappy with the performance of their new system.
Even if you are the best at something someone always has something new they can teach you. Even it is something as simple as the joy of discovery, or another way of looking at things or sharing your knowledge to enrich the person teaching you. I would suggest to anyone who has recently purchased a NEW STATE OF THE ART SEM, call the people who sold it to you and ask them for training class dates. You will learn a lot from the people who built and sold you your SEM, even if you have 10,000 hours or more experience. They are in the best position to teach you about their systems and their technology. If it is an e cross b filter or a esb detector or whatever is latest blip of technology. They know it, live it and built it. You may not learn all there is know about EM, (go to Lehigh or the like for your local) but you will learn all the ins and outs of your microscope. Some vendors even offer free training for life depending upon from whom you purchased your system.
Best of luck, happy imaging and keep on learning....
"FRED" aka David Frey
PS- I think that Debby closed with a great point that once we have trained/educated people on "our" microscopes we can't always control how or if they use the education they have received. The quality of images they are satisfied producing it is out of our hands. We here at RPI have over 75 users qualified to user our FESEM. I can't, and am not given the opportunity to review all the images that are produced. We can only hope that people ask for help if they aren't satisfied with their images. -MDF
M. David Frey Senior Application Engineer Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute Low Center for Industrial Inn. Center for Integrated Electronics 110 8th Street CII 4161 (Office) CII 6015 (Packages and Mail) Troy, NY 12180 518-276-3323 (office) 518-698-2288 (mobile) -----Original Message----- X-from: protrain-at-emcourses.com [mailto:protrain-at-emcourses.com] Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 4:15 PM To: freym2-at-rpi.edu
Hi Fred
I agree with all that you mention and I think it is important as a vendor to work hard on judging your customer.
If I run a basic residential course very few wish to attend, but run an advanced course and that creates interest. However when I start this course from the same data that is i the basic course the "advanced" users are fascinated because they too did not know! What I think we may be saying is that not all customers are up to speed on SEM in general and therefore it is tough for them to understand a State of the Art instrument.
But back to my first email. When you sell a State of the Art piece of equipment you owe it to your client to bring them up to State of the Art or in my mind what is the point of selling the equipment? All of us who have been in the business know that the more you sell, the more you sell. With that aim the better trained your new customer is the more papers they will write and the good name of your product is enhanced. That was the philosophy with which I had always worked and operating as I do now, often through personal recommendation, I agree it is important to "do a good job".
Lets await more comment
Steve
-----Original Message----- X-from: freym2-at-rpi.edu [mailto:freym2-at-rpi.edu] Sent: 14 January 2010 19:33 To: protrain-at-emcourses.com
Debby,
Thanks for adding to what I have written. I often find here at RPI, also an academic environment that the skills and knowledge a user brings into the training that is provided helps them go much farther in the quality of the images they produce. It also helps if they are interested in learning more than steps 1 through 20 in how to get an image. Understanding the "basics" of electron microscopy is a must.
X-from my prior experience as an applications person for a microscope company, we often made many assumptions to the user's basic knowledge of electron microscopy. As an aps person, we didn't always have time to fully educate the customer on the "basics" of electron microscopy, we had 2 or 3 days to get them to "know" their microscope, and then we off to home and our families or on to the next customer.
I do like the fact that there is some requirement at Purdue for the users to have a full credit course and lab behind them before they have full access to the systems. Here at RPI there are a few people trying to push that sort of requirement forward. I just always remind each user as they get trained that they can always call, asking for help is good, and no question is a stupid question.
One last idea I'd like to offer is that I take their science away from them when teaching users to use the microscope. I make them look at my samples, and they are focused on learning the basics, the controls, and the microscope itself. They aren't asking why didn't my experiment work, they are asking how do I make the picture better.
I offer that we should take the following conclusion away from this discussion: Microscope vendors train users to user their products. They aren't always to best source of basic electron microscopy education. (I think the Norm Burns said this often at Cambridge/LEICA/LEO/Zeiss). As a vendor we should leave it to the likes of Steve, Lehigh, or the old PASEM course, or the New Paltz course at the Mountain House, or the classes offered at our respective/favorite academic intuitions of choice. The microscope vendors have a wonderful pool of knowledgeable people who are tasked with selling and supporting a very technical product. At the end of the day, month, or year the bottom line to microscope vendors is how many did we sell, and how many happy customers do we have.*
David
* You can look at this as if it is driver's education, you don't see Ford, or VW teaching driver's education, they sell cars. When you pick up your new car they'll show you the basics, where the key goes, and such but it is assumed you know the rules of the road and have driver's license. :)
M. David Frey Senior Application Engineer Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute Low Center for Industrial Inn. Center for Integrated Electronics 110 8th Street CII 4161 (Office) CII 6015 (Packages and Mail) Troy, NY 12180 518-276-3323 (office) 518-698-2288 (mobile)
-----Original Message----- X-from: Sherman, Debra M [mailto:dsherman-at-purdue.edu] Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 1:25 PM To: freym2-at-rpi.edu
========================================================== Forwarded from "Ask a Microscopist" Please remember that the original poster is likely not a member of MSA, and any reply should go directly to the poster as well as to the list. ==========================================================
} Subject: FW: Ask-A-Microscopist } Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 16:03:48 -0500 } From: "Roberta Omachel" {romachel-at-DROHANMGMT.COM} } To: {oshel1pe-at-cmich.edu} } } -----Original Message----- } From: Joon Yang [mailto:jhyang01-at-gmail.com] } Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 3:53 PM } Subject: Ask-A-Microscopist } } Below is the result of your form, submitted on Tuesday, November 03, } 2009 at 12:52:28 PM. } } realname - Joon Yang } Email - jhyang01-at-gmail.com } ORGANIZATION - University of Maryland } EDUCATION - Graduate College } SUBJECT_OF_QUESTION - convergent beam diffraction (CBD) ? } QUESTION - Hi, I would like to analyze convergent beam diffraction (CBD) } of my thin film samples. I like to compare it to the simulation result } of CBD. However, I could not find CBD function in EMS website. Is there } any web site or free software? I can not afford to buy the sofware. } Please help me and let me know. } } Sincerely, } } Joon } -- Philip Oshel Microscopy Facility Supervisor Biology Department 024C Brooks Hall Central Michigan University Mt. Pleasant, MI 48859 (989) 774-3576
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} Subject: FW: Ask-A-Microscopist } -----Original Message----- } From: Mrs. Heather Fogell [mailto:Fogellh-at-rlasd.k12.pa.us] } Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 9:24 PM } To: AssociationManagement } Subject: Ask-A-Microscopist } } Below is the result of your form, submitted on Thursday, November } 05, 2009 at 06:23:53 PM. } } realname - Mrs. Heather Fogell } Email - Fogellh-at-rlasd.k12.pa.us } ORGANIZATION - Red Lion Area Senior High School } EDUCATION - 9-12th Grade High School } LOCATION - Red Lion, PA 17356 } SUBJECT_OF_QUESTION - Biology } QUESTION - I am a teacher at the Red Lion Senior HS in Red Lion, } Pa., who is responsible for an SEM (EVAX) program within the High } School. The SEM has generated a great deal of interest and the } students are excited about real world applications. I would like to } broaden the high school student's experience by teaming up with some } undergrad or grad program and trade the use of our SEM in exchange } for allowing my students a "window" on the scientific research. My } students could even do some of the technician work. I want allow for } my students to make the connection between the complex equipment and } the "real world" research applications while having them experience } the scientific process. If interested, or if you have any ideas or } suggestions, please feel free to contact me. } -- Philip Oshel Microscopy Facility Supervisor Biology Department 024C Brooks Hall Central Michigan University Mt. Pleasant, MI 48859 (989) 774-3576
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} Subject: FW: Ask-A-Microscopist } Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 16:04:41 -0500 } } -----Original Message----- } From: Eric Coates [mailto:ericcoates-at-hotmail.com] } Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 1:35 PM } To: AssociationManagement } Subject: Ask-A-Microscopist } } Below is the result of your form, submitted on Tuesday, December 01, } 2009 at 10:35:14 AM. } } realname - Eric Coates } Email - ericcoates-at-hotmail.com } SUBJECT_OF_QUESTION - freeze substitution } QUESTION - I am looking for a way to perform freeze substitution of ice } crystals for optical, not SEM, analysis. I am familiar with one method, } described in the article "Low Temperature SEM of Precipitated and } Metamorphosed Snow Crystals Collected and Transported from Remote Sites" } that appeared in JAMA v2 n3 1996, but it involves osmium tetroxide, } which I would like to avoid. I have also tried silver nitrate with no } success. Any suggestions would be appreciated. } } Thanks } } Eric Coates } -- Philip Oshel Microscopy Facility Supervisor Biology Department 024C Brooks Hall Central Michigan University Mt. Pleasant, MI 48859 (989) 774-3576
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I have just started to work an a SEM, which was acquired by donation at my university, and I started to bump into questions. Maybe You could point to me a good source of information, I am willing to learn. I have experience about 3 years in TEM, but this is a way other thing.
I am having trouble choosing the right coating for this work. I have to image the surface of tooth and the interior tooth canal. I tried to work with a 2nm coating of gold, which lead to bit of charge up, and I have seen in some article that others are working with 20nm.
If everybody could help, what thickness would be the right choice for this kind of work. My sem is an old JEOL JSM-5200.
Jakab-Farkas Laszlo Laboratory technician
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Hello, and thanks for both of You for the quick answers. So as I can now see, the 20nm of coating could the proper one. Carbon coating possibility is currently not available for me, becouse the evaporator is set up for gold now, but I will try that also in the very near future. Of course I am splitting them, I can not imagine how to to this other way.
JAKAB-FARKAS Laszlo
2010/1/17 Ron L'Herault {lherault-at-bu.edu} : } OUr SEM is uses a tungsten filament and we only image between 10x and 5000x, } and I have looked at a lot of teeth, both from the inside and outside. I } started on a JEOL JSM 35U, although we now use a Philips XL 20. Our old } Technics sputter coater puts down about 200 Angstroms of gold/palladium or } pure gold, depending on the target I install. Straight gold is not as good } as the mix for rough surfaces because the mix makes smaller grains. I } imagine you are splitting the teeth open to reveal the canals, right? It } is very difficult (maybe impossible) to get coatings down inside of a long } tube. } } Ron L'Herault } Biomaterials Division } Boston University } Goldman School of Dental Medicine } } -----Original Message----- } From: jflaci-at-ms.sapientia.ro [mailto:jflaci-at-ms.sapientia.ro] } Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2010 5:08 PM } To: lherault-at-bu.edu } Subject: [Microscopy] Choice for coating teeth structures for SEM ... } } } } } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of America } To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver } On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } Hello everybody! } } I have just started to work an a SEM, which was acquired by donation at my } university, and I started to bump into questions. Maybe You could point to } me a good source of information, I am willing to learn. I have experience } about } 3 years in TEM, but this is a way other thing. } } I am having trouble choosing the right coating for this work. I have } to image the surface } of tooth and the interior tooth canal. I tried to work with a 2nm } coating of gold, which lead } to bit of charge up, and I have seen in some article that others are } working with 20nm. } } If everybody could help, what thickness would be the right choice for } this kind of work. } My sem is an old JEOL JSM-5200. } } } Jakab-Farkas Laszlo } Laboratory technician } } ==============================Original Headers============================== } 6, 32 -- From jakabfarkaslaszlo-at-gmail.com Sat Jan 16 16:03:23 2010 } 6, 32 -- Received: from mail-bw0-f224.google.com (mail-bw0-f224.google.com } [209.85.218.224]) } 6, 32 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id } o0GM3NRR001675 } 6, 32 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 16:03:23 } -0600 } 6, 32 -- Received: by bwz24 with SMTP id 24so1475263bwz.10 } 6, 32 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 14:03:22 } -0800 (PST) } 6, 32 -- DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; } 6, 32 -- d=gmail.com; s=gamma; } 6, 32 -- h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:date } 6, 32 -- } :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; } 6, 32 -- bh=uQgoBtBdxPMKX81ZMCzeNGuDkABSZ9zeugaPwLWND1U=; } 6, 32 -- } b=p4zecEbJSijVr84R3JAwl+d3vnN7lhi6y0MVamhhBa9ABlZTM4+3q/0Q4J7FydADzP } 6, 32 -- } v1ApFe5dg8liQErF7nt8q7CCt6xi0cViMJd6afQB476WhIEd46SzCyvB1quRNZQ1Wvi8 } 6, 32 -- JIOxwpQMhr31KY1X5mXI51HMKsQFQy2iRDKoc= } 6, 32 -- DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; } 6, 32 -- d=gmail.com; s=gamma; } 6, 32 -- } h=mime-version:sender:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject } 6, 32 -- :from:to:content-type; } 6, 32 -- } b=taHpSSIcWSPfXY/0xVoRPS4RV9Pkb81RD3UAu52RHFUw5BN4Sv6cgTJDQB9VdDICxp } 6, 32 -- } pGu/jvK5bhEI8dJQD1dUz9E5Ty3N1X5sUrlsuFhFf1kcbyXbUYX13Fn8rugX3nmamBpt } 6, 32 -- LyjtMVfNb6y7+r7zMe0RYJ8uBcyddxt65JJtQ= } 6, 32 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 } 6, 32 -- Sender: jakabfarkaslaszlo-at-gmail.com } 6, 32 -- Received: by 10.204.48.132 with SMTP id } r4mr2272852bkf.158.1263679402559; Sat, } 6, 32 -- 16 Jan 2010 14:03:22 -0800 (PST) } 6, 32 -- Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 00:03:22 +0200 } 6, 32 -- X-Google-Sender-Auth: b9311c8e4c0ff3f7 } 6, 32 -- Message-ID: } {a3da032b1001161403i2150ca48k2a7a08dd34f3bd0f-at-mail.gmail.com} } 6, 32 -- Subject: Choice for coating teeth structures for SEM ... } 6, 32 -- From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Laszl=F3_Jakab=2DFarkas?= } {jflaci-at-ms.sapientia.ro} } 6, 32 -- To: Microscopy-at-microscopy.com } 6, 32 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 } ==============================End of - Headers============================== } }
==============================Original Headers============================== 4, 39 -- From jakabfarkaslaszlo-at-gmail.com Sat Jan 16 17:11:40 2010 4, 39 -- Received: from mail-bw0-f224.google.com (mail-bw0-f224.google.com [209.85.218.224]) 4, 39 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0GNBdG6021446 4, 39 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 17:11:40 -0600 4, 39 -- Received: by bwz24 with SMTP id 24so1493662bwz.10 4, 39 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 15:11:39 -0800 (PST) 4, 39 -- DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; 4, 39 -- d=gmail.com; s=gamma; 4, 39 -- h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to 4, 39 -- :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to 4, 39 -- :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; 4, 39 -- bh=++Qw5fblNSPG2fxq9GNYHPsoLzjOk5UEPmiPNWh000o=; 4, 39 -- b=NEoIuUvHR993CxaZ5LVPIf+ihchtmDTXY6sYJR9BGWqmicE46kCWk7eNv7eA2jxkl1 4, 39 -- S5gACqCwRUGGohoxUxBVodYd/QqDjq3O7gbORlI5ZcQuqt2UzoF6CZZL2N3l9g/buNMp 4, 39 -- Qak162kTzkWXCqFcCCQEHwMpnT8px94EYa16w= 4, 39 -- DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; 4, 39 -- d=gmail.com; s=gamma; 4, 39 -- h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date 4, 39 -- :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type 4, 39 -- :content-transfer-encoding; 4, 39 -- b=Tm0yNn0gnmpnYem7hxbaVE+EgLQ1lqIiyKJZ2eNsjB3QoR2NBEOdfGIOFPSkb5wTWU 4, 39 -- L4Lg7hDacInufOs0WSrygzV85/lgnpjcGznKyWqV2UB0k3RenALF/rSAYgevDPaBcKjV 4, 39 -- /agMnt5/ielCDdvGeEtj0lhkey4wn4Y5X2xu4= 4, 39 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 4, 39 -- Sender: jakabfarkaslaszlo-at-gmail.com 4, 39 -- Received: by 10.204.25.81 with SMTP id y17mr2358780bkb.96.1263683498534; Sat, 4, 39 -- 16 Jan 2010 15:11:38 -0800 (PST) 4, 39 -- In-Reply-To: {002501ca96ff$3e0348f0$ba09dad0$-at-edu} 4, 39 -- References: {201001162207.o0GM7mMc006005-at-ns.microscopy.com} 4, 39 -- {002501ca96ff$3e0348f0$ba09dad0$-at-edu} 4, 39 -- Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 01:11:38 +0200 4, 39 -- X-Google-Sender-Auth: 6f3f25719d8ff22a 4, 39 -- Message-ID: {a3da032b1001161511k51ed737aree9263fb9b66604d-at-mail.gmail.com} 4, 39 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] Choice for coating teeth structures for SEM ... 4, 39 -- From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Laszl=F3_Jakab=2DFarkas?= {jflaci-at-ms.sapientia.ro} 4, 39 -- To: Microscopy-at-microscopy.com 4, 39 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 4, 39 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 4, 39 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0GNBdG6021446 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
Au is not my choice for anything being coated. It produces a spider web characteristic if not done at high vacuum. Try Au/Pd or Ir at 30mT and don't worry all that much about film thickness. 50nm or thereabouts should work fine.
gary g.
At 02:05 PM 1/16/2010, you wrote:
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Sorry for not observing Your message, the voltage would be 5 and 25 kV, becouse as I have observed on the first look on the samples, the high accelerating voltage reveals also some of the underlying structure. As I have decreased the voltage, some of the features disappeared, and i reached the conclusion that it happened because the lower accelerating voltage / lower energy electrons have not penetrated the sample as the 25kV electrons did. Or was I wrong in this thinking process?
About the beam size: this type of instrument has a beam size setting without the possibility to see the real beam size, but I have been working at low magnification with higher, and as I increased the magnification I decreased the beam size. It has a setting trough a potentiometer control from 7o' clock to 5o' clock. for 500-1000x i use a setting about 2-3 o' clock, and when I go higher in magnification i use a setting on a low as possible basis around 9-12 o' clock.
Thanks for Your help, Laci
2010/1/17 Markus F. Meyenhofer {micro-at-superlink.net} : } What KV?, Beam size? } markus } ----- Original Message ----- From: {jflaci-at-ms.sapientia.ro} } To: {micro-at-superlink.net} } Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2010 5:03 PM } Subject: [Microscopy] Choice for coating teeth structures for SEM ... } } } } } } } } } } } } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of America } } To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- } } http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver } } On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html } } } } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } } } Hello everybody! } } } } I have just started to work an a SEM, which was acquired by donation at my } } university, and I started to bump into questions. Maybe You could point to } } me a good source of information, I am willing to learn. I have experience } } about } } 3 years in TEM, but this is a way other thing. } } } } I am having trouble choosing the right coating for this work. I have } } to image the surface } } of tooth and the interior tooth canal. I tried to work with a 2nm } } coating of gold, which lead } } to bit of charge up, and I have seen in some article that others are } } working with 20nm. } } } } If everybody could help, what thickness would be the right choice for } } this kind of work. } } My sem is an old JEOL JSM-5200. } } } } } } Jakab-Farkas Laszlo } } Laboratory technician } } } } ==============================Original } } Headers============================== } } 6, 32 -- From jakabfarkaslaszlo-at-gmail.com Sat Jan 16 16:03:23 2010 } } 6, 32 -- Received: from mail-bw0-f224.google.com (mail-bw0-f224.google.com } } [209.85.218.224]) } } 6, 32 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id } } o0GM3NRR001675 } } 6, 32 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 16:03:23 -0600 } } 6, 32 -- Received: by bwz24 with SMTP id 24so1475263bwz.10 } } 6, 32 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 } } 14:03:22 -0800 (PST) } } 6, 32 -- DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; } } 6, 32 -- d=gmail.com; s=gamma; } } 6, 32 -- h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:date } } 6, 32 -- :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; } } 6, 32 -- bh=uQgoBtBdxPMKX81ZMCzeNGuDkABSZ9zeugaPwLWND1U=; } } 6, 32 -- } } b=p4zecEbJSijVr84R3JAwl+d3vnN7lhi6y0MVamhhBa9ABlZTM4+3q/0Q4J7FydADzP } } 6, 32 -- } } v1ApFe5dg8liQErF7nt8q7CCt6xi0cViMJd6afQB476WhIEd46SzCyvB1quRNZQ1Wvi8 } } 6, 32 -- JIOxwpQMhr31KY1X5mXI51HMKsQFQy2iRDKoc= } } 6, 32 -- DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; } } 6, 32 -- d=gmail.com; s=gamma; } } 6, 32 -- } } h=mime-version:sender:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject } } 6, 32 -- :from:to:content-type; } } 6, 32 -- } } b=taHpSSIcWSPfXY/0xVoRPS4RV9Pkb81RD3UAu52RHFUw5BN4Sv6cgTJDQB9VdDICxp } } 6, 32 -- } } pGu/jvK5bhEI8dJQD1dUz9E5Ty3N1X5sUrlsuFhFf1kcbyXbUYX13Fn8rugX3nmamBpt } } 6, 32 -- LyjtMVfNb6y7+r7zMe0RYJ8uBcyddxt65JJtQ= } } 6, 32 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 } } 6, 32 -- Sender: jakabfarkaslaszlo-at-gmail.com } } 6, 32 -- Received: by 10.204.48.132 with SMTP id } } r4mr2272852bkf.158.1263679402559; Sat, } } 6, 32 -- 16 Jan 2010 14:03:22 -0800 (PST) } } 6, 32 -- Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 00:03:22 +0200 } } 6, 32 -- X-Google-Sender-Auth: b9311c8e4c0ff3f7 } } 6, 32 -- Message-ID: } } {a3da032b1001161403i2150ca48k2a7a08dd34f3bd0f-at-mail.gmail.com} } } 6, 32 -- Subject: Choice for coating teeth structures for SEM ... } } 6, 32 -- From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Laszl=F3_Jakab=2DFarkas?= } } {jflaci-at-ms.sapientia.ro} } } 6, 32 -- To: Microscopy-at-microscopy.com } } 6, 32 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 } } ==============================End of - } } Headers============================== } } } }
-- Jakab-Farkas Laszlo Labortechnikus
SAPIENTIA - ERDÉLYI MAGYAR TUDOMÁNYEGYETEM MÜSZAKI ÉS HUMÁNTUDOMÁNYOK KAR MAROSVÁSÁRHELY Campus: Segesvári út 1C., Marosvásárhely/Koronka (a város határában) Tel.: +40-(0)265-206210,+40-(0)265-208170, fax: 0265-206211 Mobil.: +40-(0)745-873844 E-mail: jflaci-at-ms.sapientia.ro Postacím: 540485 Tîrgu Mures,op 9 cp4.
==============================Original Headers============================== 10, 39 -- From jakabfarkaslaszlo-at-gmail.com Sat Jan 16 17:21:30 2010 10, 39 -- Received: from mail-bw0-f224.google.com (mail-bw0-f224.google.com [209.85.218.224]) 10, 39 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0GNLSlC013534 10, 39 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 17:21:29 -0600 10, 39 -- Received: by bwz24 with SMTP id 24so1496174bwz.10 10, 39 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 15:21:28 -0800 (PST) 10, 39 -- DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; 10, 39 -- d=gmail.com; s=gamma; 10, 39 -- h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to 10, 39 -- :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to 10, 39 -- :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; 10, 39 -- bh=q9xjbgO7OfuepDNa2enpj43IgnGBjyfiSYlhm5kH2ZE=; 10, 39 -- b=tMYLqT/xnrLndL5Lj8wPPu+2bNoNDM/EZLjrK8SWAITZR9en6uKNNQMPEAdn933YfA 10, 39 -- V5sid1Ft+HPaLYaMgcLW6f0PKBjI3ufArmLuxpFCSq1X7MMWlbm74UKIAW6lEaVhCGF2 10, 39 -- LZ6PuetcYds6Qm3oNimGa94VIM8ThhTydGGLU= 10, 39 -- DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; 10, 39 -- d=gmail.com; s=gamma; 10, 39 -- h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date 10, 39 -- :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type 10, 39 -- :content-transfer-encoding; 10, 39 -- b=Ta9VyEdlDV5xQHw1cDN7+7seWyrkbhGpG/W8S3Ny0QyVepwl4Rz8EUDye7etWX5RvE 10, 39 -- d4o/AbKyZFaJeJiR5kYd4hb9vElZPNTg1kwi+poT/DkC//6BW4igZeNEaknJGRBztMmc 10, 39 -- biOkraFHKHRcvae/vMKr+foSfLjFcIfSTQnRQ= 10, 39 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 10, 39 -- Sender: jakabfarkaslaszlo-at-gmail.com 10, 39 -- Received: by 10.204.25.81 with SMTP id y17mr2363279bkb.96.1263684087985; Sat, 10, 39 -- 16 Jan 2010 15:21:27 -0800 (PST) 10, 39 -- In-Reply-To: {FC098D0B33A74AE6B75DF7CDD74A3296-at-DJ4VDH31} 10, 39 -- References: {201001162203.o0GM3clB001937-at-ns.microscopy.com} 10, 39 -- {FC098D0B33A74AE6B75DF7CDD74A3296-at-DJ4VDH31} 10, 39 -- Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 01:21:27 +0200 10, 39 -- X-Google-Sender-Auth: e5a817d5dc296773 10, 39 -- Message-ID: {a3da032b1001161521g6ca5b018gbaa452762919a46d-at-mail.gmail.com} 10, 39 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] Choice for coating teeth structures for SEM ... 10, 39 -- From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Laszl=F3_Jakab=2DFarkas?= {jflaci-at-ms.sapientia.ro} 10, 39 -- To: Microscopy-at-microscopy.com 10, 39 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 10, 39 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 10, 39 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0GNLSlC013534 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
If you want surface features, you use low KV. High KV will have too much volumetric interaction and lose surface detail.
At low mag, I don't see much issue with probe diameter. However, probe current would be an issue as is KV. It depends on how much you want to collect below the surface.
I don't recommend C for surface detail...too coarse. Use a metal. Good ones are Au/Pd, Pd and Ir in a cold sputter coater. Chrome evaporation works well for a few minutes but oxidizes quickly. The others will last indefinitely.
gary g.
At 03:23 PM 1/16/2010, you wrote:
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==============================Original Headers============================== 9, 21 -- From gary-at-gaugler.com Sat Jan 16 17:41:07 2010 9, 21 -- Received: from smtp1.mc.surewest.net (qsmtp.mc.surewest.net [66.60.130.145]) 9, 21 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with SMTP id o0GNf6lr015052 9, 21 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 17:41:06 -0600 9, 21 -- Message-Id: {201001162341.o0GNf6lr015052-at-ns.microscopy.com} 9, 21 -- Received: (qmail 24318 invoked from network); 16 Jan 2010 16:27:57 -0800 9, 21 -- Received: by simscan 1.1.0 ppid: 24315, pid: 24316, t: 0.1669s 9, 21 -- scanners: regex: 1.1.0 attach: 1.1.0 9, 21 -- Received: from unknown (HELO thor.gaugler.com) (66.60.171.211) 9, 21 -- by smtp1 with SMTP; 16 Jan 2010 16:27:57 -0800 9, 21 -- X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 9, 21 -- Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 15:41:03 -0800 9, 21 -- To: jflaci-at-ms.sapientia.ro 9, 21 -- From: Gary Gaugler {gary-at-gaugler.com} 9, 21 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] Re: Choice for coating teeth structures for 9, 21 -- SEM ... 9, 21 -- Cc: MSA listserver {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 9, 21 -- Mime-Version: 1.0 9, 21 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed 9, 21 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 9, 21 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0GNf6lr015052 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
I use an oil diffusion pump and a rotation pump. I measure the pressure with an ionization gauge, and I get a reading about 3-6 x 10 -6 Torr.
By mT You ment mili Torr, or was I confused about that?
Laci
2010/1/17 Gary Gaugler {gary-at-gaugler.com} : } How can you get to 0.003-0.006mT? If real, that } is too high of vacuum. For ultra fine coating, I } work at 15mT with turbo pumped coater. } } gary g. } } } At 03:26 PM 1/16/2010, you wrote: } } } } } } } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of America } } To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- } } http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver } } On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html } } } } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } } } Hello, } } } } I make the coating around 0.003 to 0.006 mTorr. } } Does this effect of spider web appear at this pressure? } } } } } } Laci } } } }
-- Jakab-Farkas Laszlo Labortechnikus
SAPIENTIA - ERDÉLYI MAGYAR TUDOMÁNYEGYETEM MÜSZAKI ÉS HUMÁNTUDOMÁNYOK KAR MAROSVÁSÁRHELY Campus: Segesvári út 1C., Marosvásárhely/Koronka (a város határában) Tel.: +40-(0)265-206210,+40-(0)265-208170, fax: 0265-206211 Mobil.: +40-(0)745-873844 E-mail: jflaci-at-ms.sapientia.ro Postacím: 540485 Tîrgu Mures,op 9 cp4.
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2010/1/17 Jim Quinn {jquinn-at-www.matscieng.sunysb.edu} : } Get a copy of Goldstein's book. } } JQuinn }
-- Jakab-Farkas Laszlo Labortechnikus
SAPIENTIA - ERDÉLYI MAGYAR TUDOMÁNYEGYETEM MÜSZAKI ÉS HUMÁNTUDOMÁNYOK KAR MAROSVÁSÁRHELY Campus: Segesvári út 1C., Marosvásárhely/Koronka (a város határában) Tel.: +40-(0)265-206210,+40-(0)265-208170, fax: 0265-206211 Mobil.: +40-(0)745-873844 E-mail: jflaci-at-ms.sapientia.ro Postacím: 540485 Tîrgu Mures,op 9 cp4.
==============================Original Headers============================== 9, 39 -- From jakabfarkaslaszlo-at-gmail.com Sat Jan 16 17:50:07 2010 9, 39 -- Received: from mail-bw0-f224.google.com (mail-bw0-f224.google.com [209.85.218.224]) 9, 39 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0GNo6pK003046 9, 39 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 17:50:06 -0600 9, 39 -- Received: by bwz24 with SMTP id 24so1502768bwz.10 9, 39 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 15:50:06 -0800 (PST) 9, 39 -- DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; 9, 39 -- d=gmail.com; s=gamma; 9, 39 -- h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to 9, 39 -- :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc 9, 39 -- :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; 9, 39 -- bh=Jgjblx3whfnYCmALSe4Rrs+b62Ml+Lo0wNBFxHTwwjU=; 9, 39 -- b=F6NWZt+wMgUO85w80TElzczlIPjSRwzr3Z1DzO9+Ptz/w/b8kSLQ8eWkvay+QDNKDV 9, 39 -- B/EbWkKcK3zYLh9yqtZ8nLFBXglOjIc5XeQM2iWh6neJxu/ViaPjJp45Y+UdDQ6LXwcn 9, 39 -- ASeVoOEWV8zL0gnYfR5Me1tJIihj2FVAs1V4s= 9, 39 -- DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; 9, 39 -- d=gmail.com; s=gamma; 9, 39 -- h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date 9, 39 -- :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type 9, 39 -- :content-transfer-encoding; 9, 39 -- b=O6lNP3KOGOqPGXWExXhA7rEMFYCQZZQSQUtUm8811ZOaNjWDerHw1DvCC7SxG9Ifna 9, 39 -- kG1qzLXtqbtKAQS5u0S42hTpP8drgPL+foAPaUz1hLHDoBSyC2btBos3KusrfNuIxwg6 9, 39 -- 6GcI8vK0I4OcmxLNsDoVhvu46NV2/q9ZHBiaE= 9, 39 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 9, 39 -- Sender: jakabfarkaslaszlo-at-gmail.com 9, 39 -- Received: by 10.204.5.207 with SMTP id 15mr2380732bkw.89.1263685804082; Sat, 9, 39 -- 16 Jan 2010 15:50:04 -0800 (PST) 9, 39 -- In-Reply-To: {201001162343.o0GNhhv30693-at-www.matscieng.sunysb.edu} 9, 39 -- References: {201001162343.o0GNhhv30693-at-www.matscieng.sunysb.edu} 9, 39 -- Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 01:50:04 +0200 9, 39 -- X-Google-Sender-Auth: 209cd42111ce6eaa 9, 39 -- Message-ID: {a3da032b1001161550o44ecee6u9525cf55b4f047fd-at-mail.gmail.com} 9, 39 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] Choice for coating teeth structures for SEM ... 9, 39 -- From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Laszl=F3_Jakab=2DFarkas?= {jflaci-at-ms.sapientia.ro} 9, 39 -- To: Jim Quinn {jquinn-at-www.matscieng.sunysb.edu} 9, 39 -- Cc: Microscopy-at-microscopy.com 9, 39 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 9, 39 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 9, 39 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0GNo6pK003046 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
My coater is an old japanese glass bell jar system. I usually work in high vacuum everywhere, including the ion source, the vacuum test bench and the sputtering system in the lab, microscopy is just a part of my activity.
The exact type of the coater I cannot recall at the moment I am home now, not in the lab.
My problem is that i better would not heat up the tungsten boat I use for evaporation in the presence of any oxigen, and for the moment I do not have any inert gas in the lab, as the gas containers are away at the vendor for safety routine check. :-((.
2010/1/17 Gary Gaugler {gary-at-gaugler.com} : } I did mean mT. E-6 is territory I have not used. } I just think that that is too high of vacuum. } What do you get without the DP running? Roughing } pump only. } } What coater are you using? } } gary g. } } } At 03:48 PM 1/16/2010, you wrote: } } } } } } } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of America } } To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- } } http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver } } On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html } } } } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } } } I use an oil diffusion pump and a rotation pump. } } I measure the pressure with an ionization gauge, } } and I get a reading about 3-6 x 10 -6 Torr. } } } } By mT You ment mili Torr, or was I confused about that? } } } } Laci } } } } 2010/1/17 Gary Gaugler {gary-at-gaugler.com} : } } } How can you get to 0.003-0.006mT? If real, that } } } is too high of vacuum. For ultra fine coating, I } } } work at 15mT with turbo pumped coater. } } } } } } gary g. } } } } } } } } } At 03:26 PM 1/16/2010, you wrote: } } } } } } } } } } } } } } } } } } } } } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } } } The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of } } } } America } } } } To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- } } } } http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver } } } } On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html } } } } } } } } } } } } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } } } } } } } Hello, } } } } } } } } I make the coating around 0.003 to 0.006 mTorr. } } } } Does this effect of spider web appear at this pressure? } } } } } } } } } } } } Laci } } } } } } } } } } } } } } } } } } -- } } Jakab-Farkas Laszlo } } Labortechnikus } } } } SAPIENTIA - ERDÉLYI MAGYAR TUDOMÁNYEGYETEM } } MÜSZAKI ÉS HUMÁNTUDOMÁNYOK KAR MAROSVÁSÁRHELY } } Campus: Segesvári út 1C., Marosvásárhely/Koronka (a város határában) } } Tel.: +40-(0)265-206210,+40-(0)265-208170, fax: 0265-206211 } } Mobil.: +40-(0)745-873844 } } E-mail: jflaci-at-ms.sapientia.ro } } Postacím: 540485 Tîrgu Mures,op 9 cp4. } } } } } } ==============================Original } } Headers============================== } } 9, 40 -- From jakabfarkaslaszlo-at-gmail.com Sat Jan 16 17:46:33 2010 } } 9, 40 -- Received: from mail-bw0-f224.google.com (mail-bw0-f224.google.com } } [209.85.218.224]) } } 9, 40 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP } } id o0GNkWoP025681 } } 9, 40 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 17:46:32 } } -0600 } } 9, 40 -- Received: by bwz24 with SMTP id 24so1501960bwz.10 } } 9, 40 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 } } 15:46:31 -0800 (PST) } } 9, 40 -- DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; } } 9, 40 -- d=gmail.com; s=gamma; } } 9, 40 -- } } h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to } } 9, 40 -- } } :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc } } 9, 40 -- :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; } } 9, 40 -- bh=KjNSZmjluCsFrQRD0GZQmtHUy2pwdhTNFd1vHoO/tKo=; } } 9, 40 -- } } b=SpHOWl6+NsM3Oz/LzjMiDf/ErP5zIBdjKctmkyZLk7GKVdrVX8LiL+VFHXD7kvuIIn } } 9, 40 } } -- } } 7bUFc15KbyN/4Zdg6gLXKhT8jrBTrBKMOr0qnxibpn8W7mexL3dcTPSdnKo8NefBZ/6x } } 9, 40 -- Rim0ElwRQvZ3+Hbszm/siOBFCI1ameIkwI3h0= } } 9, 40 -- DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; } } 9, 40 -- d=gmail.com; s=gamma; } } 9, 40 -- h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date } } 9, 40 -- } } :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type } } 9, 40 -- :content-transfer-encoding; } } 9, 40 -- } } b=lAYcHZoHYWzLsMi9bJ311MK05o+8DhaUWq3QA6bG6GHd5EnSx61890mx0rHGIQWnHg } } 9, 40 } } -- } } 7ub9Qywxh7b24N1sNibR0GxzFbjzaM2995+Ijo6Dk4vla9kV4xU8bvZblRSQQzTOXShz } } 9, 40 -- n6Vkq/mJBJkc4fmy0xIN3pGp3SPtW2/vaQwnA= } } 9, 40 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 } } 9, 40 -- Sender: jakabfarkaslaszlo-at-gmail.com } } 9, 40 -- Received: by 10.204.133.146 with SMTP id } } f18mr479647bkt.17.1263685591766; Sat, } } 9, 40 -- 16 Jan 2010 15:46:31 -0800 (PST) } } 9, 40 -- In-Reply-To: {20100116234256.56A84441F56-at-ms.sapientia.ro} } } 9, 40 -- References: {201001162326.o0GNQg11027835-at-ns.microscopy.com} } } 9, 40 -- {20100116234256.56A84441F56-at-ms.sapientia.ro} } } 9, 40 -- Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 01:46:31 +0200 } } 9, 40 -- X-Google-Sender-Auth: 839665a804e9c4f7 } } 9, 40 -- Message-ID: } } {a3da032b1001161546sd7b680dh6974bd098a884024-at-mail.gmail.com} } } 9, 40 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] Re: Choice for coating teeth structures } } for SEM } } 9, 40 -- From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Laszl=F3_Jakab=2DFarkas?= } } {jflaci-at-ms.sapientia.ro} } } 9, 40 -- To: Gary Gaugler {gary-at-gaugler.com} } } 9, 40 -- Cc: Microscopy-at-microscopy.com } } 9, 40 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 } } 9, 40 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit } } 9, 40 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by } } ns.microscopy.com id o0GNkWoP025681 } } ==============================End of - } } Headers============================== } }
-- Jakab-Farkas Laszlo Labortechnikus
SAPIENTIA - ERDÉLYI MAGYAR TUDOMÁNYEGYETEM MÜSZAKI ÉS HUMÁNTUDOMÁNYOK KAR MAROSVÁSÁRHELY Campus: Segesvári út 1C., Marosvásárhely/Koronka (a város határában) Tel.: +40-(0)265-206210,+40-(0)265-208170, fax: 0265-206211 Mobil.: +40-(0)745-873844 E-mail: jflaci-at-ms.sapientia.ro Postacím: 540485 Tîrgu Mures,op 9 cp4.
==============================Original Headers============================== 12, 40 -- From jakabfarkaslaszlo-at-gmail.com Sat Jan 16 18:04:13 2010 12, 40 -- Received: from mail-bw0-f224.google.com (mail-bw0-f224.google.com [209.85.218.224]) 12, 40 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0H04DWj026949 12, 40 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 18:04:13 -0600 12, 40 -- Received: by bwz24 with SMTP id 24so1506052bwz.10 12, 40 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 16:04:12 -0800 (PST) 12, 40 -- DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; 12, 40 -- d=gmail.com; s=gamma; 12, 40 -- h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to 12, 40 -- :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc 12, 40 -- :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; 12, 40 -- bh=DQySpPPeTTdbzodELSlWkCqYcGT/CY1BWvGCD5ve40k=; 12, 40 -- b=ND255LX+ME3D/x5bzrW9/aN1n8BpOtEOGf+2mHc435JUewc67iwZx//gKUY18eR8yf 12, 40 -- JyD04dbqjFAuWzg3csMspr5VJrMp1+cb1NeZ7wGsOPHCaOePeTY2CwE1GdfrA2B0YV4z 12, 40 -- O71dMkMxhzsyPwDjrliMvYWof3A9XXFo76OgM= 12, 40 -- DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; 12, 40 -- d=gmail.com; s=gamma; 12, 40 -- h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date 12, 40 -- :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type 12, 40 -- :content-transfer-encoding; 12, 40 -- b=TnpF7N+W8t+7UUuhnjXUl5wiRp2n/58mS3KMGvnE8yuAbVEoSFVTKTNo1p1Y0lmInO 12, 40 -- BulP0PHQFzQusw9aIJwCvjwT3LgdhVSHwite3OmRsEuAPxb2fRHfRq7D0u/m02p1TbuC 12, 40 -- DaAWp9+X54uZhTqaiUUJ2RT19R84fL9AoIG8I= 12, 40 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 12, 40 -- Sender: jakabfarkaslaszlo-at-gmail.com 12, 40 -- Received: by 10.204.155.82 with SMTP id r18mr2344545bkw.180.1263686652386; 12, 40 -- Sat, 16 Jan 2010 16:04:12 -0800 (PST) 12, 40 -- In-Reply-To: {20100116235852.0C9EC441F5C-at-ms.sapientia.ro} 12, 40 -- References: {201001162348.o0GNmP5d030257-at-ns.microscopy.com} 12, 40 -- {20100116235852.0C9EC441F5C-at-ms.sapientia.ro} 12, 40 -- Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 02:04:12 +0200 12, 40 -- X-Google-Sender-Auth: ab6d5a19ee26d821 12, 40 -- Message-ID: {a3da032b1001161604w1a81189bveeab445b5ee7ba38-at-mail.gmail.com} 12, 40 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] Choice for coating teeth structures for SEM 12, 40 -- From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Laszl=F3_Jakab=2DFarkas?= {jflaci-at-ms.sapientia.ro} 12, 40 -- To: Gary Gaugler {gary-at-gaugler.com} 12, 40 -- Cc: Microscopy-at-microscopy.com 12, 40 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 12, 40 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 12, 40 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0H04DWj026949 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
Laci, I'm a little confused. Are you evaporating or sputtering? If you're evaporating, the vacuum you've stated is fine. The lower the pressure, the better. If you're sputtering, it just won't work at all. Pressure in the mT range is required.
As to coating thickness, the thicker it is, the more detail you'll hide. At low mags 50nm might be OK, but for high mags I wouldn’t put on more than 5-10nm.
Any time there is a charging problem, you will want to reduce your beam size even if you are working at low mags. On the JSM-5200 I normally do high mag work with the probe size knob as close to fully CCW (about 7 o'clock) as I can. If all is well with the system and the sample has decent signal, that means fully CCW. Unless there is a need for x-ray generation or other special needs (BSE), I tend to keep the probe size as small as possible for all imaging (less than 12 o'clock), as this also tends to limit problems with charging and/or beam damage to the specimen (not a significant problem with teeth). Compensate for the noise (graininess) by using slower scan speeds.
Also be sure that there is a conductive path from the top of the specimen to the stub. If there is an area on the top of the specimen that is not of interest, run some dag (graphite paint) from there, down the side of the specimen, to the stub before coating. That way you can be sure that the coating is connected to the stub. Without doing that, there is a chance that the overhang of the specimen will cause a gap in the coating.
Ken Converse owner
QUALITY IMAGES Servicing Scanning Electron Microscopes Since 1981 474 So. Bridgton Rd. Bridgton, ME 04009 207-647-4348 Fax 207-647-2688 kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz qualityimages.biz
-----Original Message----- X-from: jflaci-at-ms.sapientia.ro [mailto:jflaci-at-ms.sapientia.ro] Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2010 7:06 PM To: kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz
Hello,
My coater is an old japanese glass bell jar system. I usually work in high vacuum everywhere, including the ion source, the vacuum test bench and the sputtering system in the lab, microscopy is just a part of my activity.
The exact type of the coater I cannot recall at the moment I am home now, not in the lab.
My problem is that i better would not heat up the tungsten boat I use for evaporation in the presence of any oxigen, and for the moment I do not have any inert gas in the lab, as the gas containers are away at the vendor for safety routine check. :-((.
2010/1/17 Gary Gaugler {gary-at-gaugler.com} : } I did mean mT. E-6 is territory I have not used. } I just think that that is too high of vacuum. } What do you get without the DP running? Roughing } pump only. } } What coater are you using? } } gary g. } } } At 03:48 PM 1/16/2010, you wrote: } } } } } } } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of America } } To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- } } http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver } } On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html } } } } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } } } I use an oil diffusion pump and a rotation pump. } } I measure the pressure with an ionization gauge, } } and I get a reading about 3-6 x 10 -6 Torr. } } } } By mT You ment mili Torr, or was I confused about that? } } } } Laci } } } } 2010/1/17 Gary Gaugler {gary-at-gaugler.com} : } } } How can you get to 0.003-0.006mT? If real, that } } } is too high of vacuum. For ultra fine coating, I } } } work at 15mT with turbo pumped coater. } } } } } } gary g. } } } } } } } } } At 03:26 PM 1/16/2010, you wrote: } } } } } } } } } } } } } } } } } } } } } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } } } The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of } } } } America } } } } To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- } } } } http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver } } } } On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html } } } } } } } } } } } } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } } } } } } } Hello, } } } } } } } } I make the coating around 0.003 to 0.006 mTorr. } } } } Does this effect of spider web appear at this pressure? } } } } } } } } } } } } Laci } } } } } } } } } } } } } } } } } } -- } } Jakab-Farkas Laszlo } } Labortechnikus } } } } SAPIENTIA - ERDÉLYI MAGYAR TUDOMÁNYEGYETEM } } MÜSZAKI ÉS HUMÁNTUDOMÁNYOK KAR MAROSVÁSÁRHELY } } Campus: Segesvári út 1C., Marosvásárhely/Koronka (a város határában) } } Tel.: +40-(0)265-206210,+40-(0)265-208170, fax: 0265-206211 } } Mobil.: +40-(0)745-873844 } } E-mail: jflaci-at-ms.sapientia.ro } } Postacím: 540485 Tîrgu Mures,op 9 cp4. } } } } } } ==============================Original } } Headers============================== } } 9, 40 -- From jakabfarkaslaszlo-at-gmail.com Sat Jan 16 17:46:33 2010 } } 9, 40 -- Received: from mail-bw0-f224.google.com (mail-bw0-f224.google.com } } [209.85.218.224]) } } 9, 40 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP } } id o0GNkWoP025681 } } 9, 40 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 17:46:32 } } -0600 } } 9, 40 -- Received: by bwz24 with SMTP id 24so1501960bwz.10 } } 9, 40 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 } } 15:46:31 -0800 (PST) } } 9, 40 -- DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; } } 9, 40 -- d=gmail.com; s=gamma; } } 9, 40 -- } } h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to } } 9, 40 -- } } :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc } } 9, 40 -- :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; } } 9, 40 -- bh=KjNSZmjluCsFrQRD0GZQmtHUy2pwdhTNFd1vHoO/tKo=; } } 9, 40 -- } } b=SpHOWl6+NsM3Oz/LzjMiDf/ErP5zIBdjKctmkyZLk7GKVdrVX8LiL+VFHXD7kvuIIn } } 9, 40 } } -- } } 7bUFc15KbyN/4Zdg6gLXKhT8jrBTrBKMOr0qnxibpn8W7mexL3dcTPSdnKo8NefBZ/6x } } 9, 40 -- Rim0ElwRQvZ3+Hbszm/siOBFCI1ameIkwI3h0= } } 9, 40 -- DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; } } 9, 40 -- d=gmail.com; s=gamma; } } 9, 40 -- h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date } } 9, 40 -- } } :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type } } 9, 40 -- :content-transfer-encoding; } } 9, 40 -- } } b=lAYcHZoHYWzLsMi9bJ311MK05o+8DhaUWq3QA6bG6GHd5EnSx61890mx0rHGIQWnHg } } 9, 40 } } -- } } 7ub9Qywxh7b24N1sNibR0GxzFbjzaM2995+Ijo6Dk4vla9kV4xU8bvZblRSQQzTOXShz } } 9, 40 -- n6Vkq/mJBJkc4fmy0xIN3pGp3SPtW2/vaQwnA= } } 9, 40 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 } } 9, 40 -- Sender: jakabfarkaslaszlo-at-gmail.com } } 9, 40 -- Received: by 10.204.133.146 with SMTP id } } f18mr479647bkt.17.1263685591766; Sat, } } 9, 40 -- 16 Jan 2010 15:46:31 -0800 (PST) } } 9, 40 -- In-Reply-To: {20100116234256.56A84441F56-at-ms.sapientia.ro} } } 9, 40 -- References: {201001162326.o0GNQg11027835-at-ns.microscopy.com} } } 9, 40 -- {20100116234256.56A84441F56-at-ms.sapientia.ro} } } 9, 40 -- Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 01:46:31 +0200 } } 9, 40 -- X-Google-Sender-Auth: 839665a804e9c4f7 } } 9, 40 -- Message-ID: } } {a3da032b1001161546sd7b680dh6974bd098a884024-at-mail.gmail.com} } } 9, 40 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] Re: Choice for coating teeth structures } } for SEM } } 9, 40 -- From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Laszl=F3_Jakab=2DFarkas?= } } {jflaci-at-ms.sapientia.ro} } } 9, 40 -- To: Gary Gaugler {gary-at-gaugler.com} } } 9, 40 -- Cc: Microscopy-at-microscopy.com } } 9, 40 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 } } 9, 40 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit } } 9, 40 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by } } ns.microscopy.com id o0GNkWoP025681 } } ==============================End of - } } Headers============================== } }
-- Jakab-Farkas Laszlo Labortechnikus
SAPIENTIA - ERDÉLYI MAGYAR TUDOMÁNYEGYETEM MÜSZAKI ÉS HUMÁNTUDOMÁNYOK KAR MAROSVÁSÁRHELY Campus: Segesvári út 1C., Marosvásárhely/Koronka (a város határában) Tel.: +40-(0)265-206210,+40-(0)265-208170, fax: 0265-206211 Mobil.: +40-(0)745-873844 E-mail: jflaci-at-ms.sapientia.ro Postacím: 540485 Tîrgu Mures,op 9 cp4.
==============================Original Headers============================== 12, 40 -- From jakabfarkaslaszlo-at-gmail.com Sat Jan 16 18:04:13 2010 12, 40 -- Received: from mail-bw0-f224.google.com (mail-bw0-f224.google.com [209.85.218.224]) 12, 40 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0H04DWj026949 12, 40 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 18:04:13 -0600 12, 40 -- Received: by bwz24 with SMTP id 24so1506052bwz.10 12, 40 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 16:04:12 -0800 (PST) 12, 40 -- DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; 12, 40 -- d=gmail.com; s=gamma; 12, 40 -- h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to 12, 40 -- :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc 12, 40 -- :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; 12, 40 -- bh=DQySpPPeTTdbzodELSlWkCqYcGT/CY1BWvGCD5ve40k=; 12, 40 -- b=ND255LX+ME3D/x5bzrW9/aN1n8BpOtEOGf+2mHc435JUewc67iwZx//gKUY18eR8yf 12, 40 -- JyD04dbqjFAuWzg3csMspr5VJrMp1+cb1NeZ7wGsOPHCaOePeTY2CwE1GdfrA2B0YV4z 12, 40 -- O71dMkMxhzsyPwDjrliMvYWof3A9XXFo76OgM= 12, 40 -- DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; 12, 40 -- d=gmail.com; s=gamma; 12, 40 -- h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date 12, 40 -- :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type 12, 40 -- :content-transfer-encoding; 12, 40 -- b=TnpF7N+W8t+7UUuhnjXUl5wiRp2n/58mS3KMGvnE8yuAbVEoSFVTKTNo1p1Y0lmInO 12, 40 -- BulP0PHQFzQusw9aIJwCvjwT3LgdhVSHwite3OmRsEuAPxb2fRHfRq7D0u/m02p1TbuC 12, 40 -- DaAWp9+X54uZhTqaiUUJ2RT19R84fL9AoIG8I= 12, 40 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 12, 40 -- Sender: jakabfarkaslaszlo-at-gmail.com 12, 40 -- Received: by 10.204.155.82 with SMTP id r18mr2344545bkw.180.1263686652386; 12, 40 -- Sat, 16 Jan 2010 16:04:12 -0800 (PST) 12, 40 -- In-Reply-To: {20100116235852.0C9EC441F5C-at-ms.sapientia.ro} 12, 40 -- References: {201001162348.o0GNmP5d030257-at-ns.microscopy.com} 12, 40 -- {20100116235852.0C9EC441F5C-at-ms.sapientia.ro} 12, 40 -- Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 02:04:12 +0200 12, 40 -- X-Google-Sender-Auth: ab6d5a19ee26d821 12, 40 -- Message-ID: {a3da032b1001161604w1a81189bveeab445b5ee7ba38-at-mail.gmail.com} 12, 40 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] Choice for coating teeth structures for SEM 12, 40 -- From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Laszl=F3_Jakab=2DFarkas?= {jflaci-at-ms.sapientia.ro} 12, 40 -- To: Gary Gaugler {gary-at-gaugler.com} 12, 40 -- Cc: Microscopy-at-microscopy.com 12, 40 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 12, 40 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 12, 40 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0H04DWj026949 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
==============================Original Headers============================== 27, 28 -- From kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz Sun Jan 17 07:23:36 2010 27, 28 -- Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.123]) 27, 28 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0HDNa8S010530 27, 28 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 07:23:36 -0600 27, 28 -- X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=ChAqZpA9I_AA:10 a=Zx37jsudAAAA:8 a=yEtP3ff8AAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=1XWaLZrsAAAA:8 a=fcQXy0lRQe7Kw7oAI1AA:9 a=UGzMYQDsvsd_hLLYoJoA:7 a=yxnL_sqxoM8Z2LgIkC2fE5bcrXAA:4 a=5JUlSvKOtR0A:10 a=fM1NKZWFy18A:10 a=SEuX1L-y0FMA:10 a=3_2eAsHTqJoA:10 a=rvmAHA6J-H4A:10 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=G91thX30KR8A:10 27, 28 -- X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 27, 28 -- X-Originating-IP: 72.227.111.133 27, 28 -- Received: from [72.227.111.133] ([72.227.111.133:1611] helo=Ken) 27, 28 -- by cdptpa-oedge03.mail.rr.com (envelope-from {kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz} ) 27, 28 -- (ecelerity 2.2.2.39 r()) with ESMTP 27, 28 -- id FA/59-17767-75F035B4; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 13:23:36 +0000 27, 28 -- From: "Ken Converse" {kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz} 27, 28 -- To: {jflaci-at-ms.sapientia.ro} , "MSA Listserver" {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 27, 28 -- Subject: RE: [Microscopy] Re: Choice for coating teeth structures for SEM 27, 28 -- Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 08:23:26 -0500 27, 28 -- Message-ID: {60D75E54645042ECA2D926C25F05E631-at-Ken} 27, 28 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 27, 28 -- Content-Type: text/plain; 27, 28 -- charset="iso-8859-1" 27, 28 -- X-Priority: 3 (Normal) 27, 28 -- X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 27, 28 -- X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6838 27, 28 -- In-Reply-To: {201001170005.o0H05xEf030678-at-ns.microscopy.com} 27, 28 -- Importance: Normal 27, 28 -- Thread-Index: AcqXCNrOasGW4PhYReey/aGcOL9V7gAbBwJQ 27, 28 -- X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 27, 28 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 27, 28 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0HDNa8S010530 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
Yes, I am working with evaporation. As I know, sputtering at this vacuum levels (e-6) is almost impossible. I think I will try to make some 5-10 nm coatings, and see what is the result. Of course I have drawn two grounding lines from conductive Ar paint to the base of the sample, for conducting charge to the stub.
Yeah, I have tried to go down to 7 o'clock with the beam size, but at some point I couldn't obtain decent exposure. When the service from Jeol was at our place, they said, that the scintillator is down to almost 60%. Could this be the problem? At that point we did not have the possibility to change it. :-(
Laci
==============================Original Headers============================== 4, 37 -- From jakabfarkaslaszlo-at-gmail.com Sun Jan 17 15:08:15 2010 4, 37 -- Received: from mail-bw0-f212.google.com (mail-bw0-f212.google.com [209.85.218.212]) 4, 37 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0HL8DUj003139 4, 37 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 15:08:13 -0600 4, 37 -- Received: by bwz4 with SMTP id 4so1682952bwz.2 4, 37 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 13:08:13 -0800 (PST) 4, 37 -- DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; 4, 37 -- d=gmail.com; s=gamma; 4, 37 -- h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to 4, 37 -- :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc 4, 37 -- :content-type; 4, 37 -- bh=FU2da3UizVwZyQyLfO/EKGGDo0uoijvesIjFf40uaqg=; 4, 37 -- b=Pr2/p9jTbfSVugUlG8c8JW08Lsv5BC1fzFKgZ+Rnzcp6ZX65LaVjfjkk04tvBmRW/m 4, 37 -- QThCjYmr9r7xKBlgTyuZs4ywyxsZUYEVly5xQOH8CMMWlQyHGGCxl2B98fdOSfnbAoUe 4, 37 -- 4NkbdaInXnDQZGs789Rtx5m7gIzkS8WkqcrMY= 4, 37 -- DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; 4, 37 -- d=gmail.com; s=gamma; 4, 37 -- h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date 4, 37 -- :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; 4, 37 -- b=wuc5mQlLj5JLEG6o2u7JntBuFEelPct0HxNuYRZlgKcHTNuoKRKaYcfBLBMAL9Cusm 4, 37 -- PTc0FqM35SAowLiUMVwG0nhRXu8MJxhR1mb9uYII1STKLgTAxuTzjhGGInK7zL0Oy41l 4, 37 -- t+S0OPXtK0x9WFQS9YigxGnKDLGQmopok869I= 4, 37 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 4, 37 -- Sender: jakabfarkaslaszlo-at-gmail.com 4, 37 -- Received: by 10.204.48.132 with SMTP id r4mr2890496bkf.158.1263762492999; Sun, 4, 37 -- 17 Jan 2010 13:08:12 -0800 (PST) 4, 37 -- In-Reply-To: {60D75E54645042ECA2D926C25F05E631-at-Ken} 4, 37 -- References: {201001170005.o0H05xEf030678-at-ns.microscopy.com} 4, 37 -- {60D75E54645042ECA2D926C25F05E631-at-Ken} 4, 37 -- Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 23:08:12 +0200 4, 37 -- X-Google-Sender-Auth: 449f448a9c7a83d0 4, 37 -- Message-ID: {a3da032b1001171308qeccc84cr5afb6b3f19b1e006-at-mail.gmail.com} 4, 37 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] Re: Choice for coating teeth structures for SEM 4, 37 -- From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Laszl=F3_Jakab=2DFarkas?= {jflaci-at-ms.sapientia.ro} 4, 37 -- To: Ken Converse {kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz} 4, 37 -- Cc: Microscopy-at-microscopy.com 4, 37 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
Laci, It sounds like you have just about everything under control. Get a new scintillator as soon as you can. Under most "normal" circumstances, an old scint is not a big problem, but any time you are "pushing" things, it tends to become far more important.
As is obvious, you can't use as small a spot size as you might like. A more insidious effect is that the finest detail tends to come from the lowest energy secondary electrons. They are the first ones to stop exciting the scint as it ages, therefore your finest detail is the first to go.
Good luck!
Ken Converse owner
QUALITY IMAGES Servicing Scanning Electron Microscopes Since 1981 474 So. Bridgton Rd. Bridgton, ME 04009 207-647-4348 Fax 207-647-2688 kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz qualityimages.biz
-----Original Message----- X-from: jakabfarkaslaszlo-at-gmail.com [mailto:jakabfarkaslaszlo-at-gmail.com] On Behalf Of Laszló Jakab-Farkas Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2010 4:08 PM To: Ken Converse Cc: Microscopy-at-microscopy.com
And as tempting as it may seem to save money and install the scintillator disk yourself, don't do it. It is expensive and easy to damage. It is better to hire the JEOL tech to do it. If he (or she) screws it up, you are not on the hook to buy a second scintillator disk. Don't ask me how I know this 8-)
Ron L
-----Original Message----- X-from: kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz [mailto:kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz] Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2010 5:38 PM To: lherault-at-bu.edu
Laci, It sounds like you have just about everything under control. Get a new scintillator as soon as you can. Under most "normal" circumstances, an old scint is not a big problem, but any time you are "pushing" things, it tends to become far more important.
As is obvious, you can't use as small a spot size as you might like. A more insidious effect is that the finest detail tends to come from the lowest energy secondary electrons. They are the first ones to stop exciting the scint as it ages, therefore your finest detail is the first to go.
Good luck!
Ken Converse owner
QUALITY IMAGES Servicing Scanning Electron Microscopes Since 1981 474 So. Bridgton Rd. Bridgton, ME 04009 207-647-4348 Fax 207-647-2688 kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz qualityimages.biz
-----Original Message----- X-from: jakabfarkaslaszlo-at-gmail.com [mailto:jakabfarkaslaszlo-at-gmail.com] On Behalf Of Laszló Jakab-Farkas Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2010 4:08 PM To: Ken Converse Cc: Microscopy-at-microscopy.com
Hello everybody!
Thank You very much for the many answers, and the help provided.
So in short the current status:
1. Yes, unfortunately the Ar paint was a typo, i ment Ag. Sorry about that. 2. I was worried about heating up the tungsten boat at 50mTorr residual gas, not 50mTorr of Ar. 3. Thank You for noting that I shouldn't try to mount the scint by myself, I think I feel what happened there, sorry to hear that. 4. Now I will try some Au coats armed with the information You kindly provided, and
Many many thanks for everybody
Laci.
PS: both of the books are on the way to me, so I guess I will have to read much in the short future.
If you coat your sample by evaporation and the sample is rough -typical cases are a fracture of a porous rock, or the classical fly, your teeth may be in that category-, it's important to be able to rock the sampe during the coating. Evaporation from a boat is a point source, as sputtering is a diffuse/large surface source. With evaporation you may have much shadowing, and a non continuous film on the sample, what can explain the remaining charging. Increasing the thickness will not solve that problem. As Ken said, 5-10 nm should be enough, a bit more for low mag. You need to rock the sample, in a way that the most of the sides of holes, facet, etc will be exposed to the metal flux. If the rocking is not possible, you can do 2 or 3 short evaporations, at different incidences, for a total thickness of ay 20 nm, but it will take a longer time. These are two reason wy sputtering is most prefered to evaporation, directionnality and time spending.
Hope it helps
J. Faerber IPCMS-GSI (Institut de Physique et Chimie des Matériaux de Strasbourg Groupe Surface et Interfaces) 23, rue de Loess ; BP43 67034 Strasbourg CEDEX 2 France
jflaci-at-ms.sapientia.ro a écrit : } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of America } To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver } On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } Dear Ken! } } Yes, I am working with evaporation. As I know, sputtering at this } vacuum levels (e-6) is almost impossible. I think I will try to make } some 5-10 nm } coatings, and see what is the result. Of course I have drawn two grounding lines } from conductive Ar paint to the base of the sample, for conducting } charge to the } stub. } } Yeah, I have tried to go down to 7 o'clock with the beam size, but } at some point I couldn't obtain decent exposure. When the service } from Jeol was at our place, they said, that the scintillator is down to } almost 60%. Could this be the problem? At that point we did not have the } possibility to change it. :-( } } Laci } } ==============================Original Headers============================== } 4, 37 -- From jakabfarkaslaszlo-at-gmail.com Sun Jan 17 15:08:15 2010 } 4, 37 -- Received: from mail-bw0-f212.google.com (mail-bw0-f212.google.com [209.85.218.212]) } 4, 37 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0HL8DUj003139 } 4, 37 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 15:08:13 -0600 } 4, 37 -- Received: by bwz4 with SMTP id 4so1682952bwz.2 } 4, 37 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 13:08:13 -0800 (PST) } 4, 37 -- DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; } 4, 37 -- d=gmail.com; s=gamma; } 4, 37 -- h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to } 4, 37 -- :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc } 4, 37 -- :content-type; } 4, 37 -- bh=FU2da3UizVwZyQyLfO/EKGGDo0uoijvesIjFf40uaqg=; } 4, 37 -- b=Pr2/p9jTbfSVugUlG8c8JW08Lsv5BC1fzFKgZ+Rnzcp6ZX65LaVjfjkk04tvBmRW/m } 4, 37 -- QThCjYmr9r7xKBlgTyuZs4ywyxsZUYEVly5xQOH8CMMWlQyHGGCxl2B98fdOSfnbAoUe } 4, 37 -- 4NkbdaInXnDQZGs789Rtx5m7gIzkS8WkqcrMY= } 4, 37 -- DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; } 4, 37 -- d=gmail.com; s=gamma; } 4, 37 -- h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date } 4, 37 -- :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; } 4, 37 -- b=wuc5mQlLj5JLEG6o2u7JntBuFEelPct0HxNuYRZlgKcHTNuoKRKaYcfBLBMAL9Cusm } 4, 37 -- PTc0FqM35SAowLiUMVwG0nhRXu8MJxhR1mb9uYII1STKLgTAxuTzjhGGInK7zL0Oy41l } 4, 37 -- t+S0OPXtK0x9WFQS9YigxGnKDLGQmopok869I= } 4, 37 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 } 4, 37 -- Sender: jakabfarkaslaszlo-at-gmail.com } 4, 37 -- Received: by 10.204.48.132 with SMTP id r4mr2890496bkf.158.1263762492999; Sun, } 4, 37 -- 17 Jan 2010 13:08:12 -0800 (PST) } 4, 37 -- In-Reply-To: {60D75E54645042ECA2D926C25F05E631-at-Ken} } 4, 37 -- References: {201001170005.o0H05xEf030678-at-ns.microscopy.com} } 4, 37 -- {60D75E54645042ECA2D926C25F05E631-at-Ken} } 4, 37 -- Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 23:08:12 +0200 } 4, 37 -- X-Google-Sender-Auth: 449f448a9c7a83d0 } 4, 37 -- Message-ID: {a3da032b1001171308qeccc84cr5afb6b3f19b1e006-at-mail.gmail.com} } 4, 37 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] Re: Choice for coating teeth structures for SEM } 4, 37 -- From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Laszl=F3_Jakab=2DFarkas?= {jflaci-at-ms.sapientia.ro} } 4, 37 -- To: Ken Converse {kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz} } 4, 37 -- Cc: Microscopy-at-microscopy.com } 4, 37 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 } ==============================End of - Headers============================== }
==============================Original Headers============================== 9, 32 -- From jacques.faerber-at-ipcms.u-strasbg.fr Mon Jan 18 02:20:08 2010 9, 32 -- Received: from mailhost.u-strasbg.fr (mailhost.u-strasbg.fr [130.79.200.151]) 9, 32 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0I8K61A011440 9, 32 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 02:20:07 -0600 9, 32 -- Received: from ipcms.u-strasbg.fr (ipcms.u-strasbg.fr [130.79.210.2]) 9, 32 -- by mailhost.u-strasbg.fr (8.14.2/jtpda-5.5pre1) with ESMTP id o0I8K55J092987 9, 32 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 09:20:05 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jacques.faerber-at-ipcms.u-strasbg.fr) 9, 32 -- Received: from [130.79.152.3] (odhinn.u-strasbg.fr [130.79.152.3]) 9, 32 -- (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) 9, 32 -- (No client certificate requested) 9, 32 -- by ipcms.u-strasbg.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id E52B810003AE 9, 32 -- for {Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com} ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 08:56:28 +0100 (CET) 9, 32 -- Message-ID: {4B5419AC.3030109-at-ipcms.u-strasbg.fr} 9, 32 -- Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 09:19:56 +0100 9, 32 -- From: "j.faerber" {jacques.faerber-at-ipcms.u-strasbg.fr} 9, 32 -- User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090817) 9, 32 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 9, 32 -- To: Microscopy-at-microscopy.com 9, 32 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] Choice for coating teeth structures for SEM 9, 32 -- References: {201001172113.o0HLDkXM010394-at-ns.microscopy.com} 9, 32 -- In-Reply-To: {201001172113.o0HLDkXM010394-at-ns.microscopy.com} 9, 32 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed 9, 32 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 9, 32 -- X-IPCMS-MailScanner: Found to be clean 9, 32 -- X-IPCMS-MailScanner-SpamScore: s 9, 32 -- X-IPCMS-MailScanner-From: jacques.faerber-at-ipcms.u-strasbg.fr 9, 32 -- X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0.1 (mailhost.u-strasbg.fr [130.79.200.151]); Mon, 18 Jan 2010 09:20:05 +0100 (CET) 9, 32 -- X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.94.2/10307/Sun Jan 17 23:54:01 2010 on mr1.u-strasbg.fr 9, 32 -- X-Virus-Status: Clean 9, 32 -- X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.0 required=5.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST 9, 32 -- autolearn=disabled version=3.2.5 9, 32 -- X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on mr1.u-strasbg.fr ==============================End of - Headers==============================
Thanks for your updated email and I do hope ALL SEM people read it as you have hit the nail on the head (as we would say in England).
I am sure that you and thousands of others around the world do everything that you can to ensure your colleagues know as much as possible about the instruments you use. But, from the off line questions that I have, not one has mentioned a level of understanding in this complex area that I would have hoped had been achieved. Which brings us to your most important point, there are people around who will be able to answer most questions; in particular the equipment manufacturer!
Back to cars so that I do not offend anyone. How many of you feel that you are a competent driver, perhaps on a race track you could get round pretty quickly? I am sure that I or one of our race team could knock at least 14% off your lap time; relate that to how much extra I am sure that you could learn from your SEM manufacturer!
I have thought about this over the weekend and although I earn my living by passing on my knowledge I am setting out below an example that may help people to better understand the double detection system of a modern SEM.
The customer of a client had nanotubes that were uncoated and they were required to be imaged at 150,000X. The client had worked at 2kV, 4mm WD, 60um aperture and the upper detector, in a Zeiss microscope that uses a range of aperture sizes to control probe current. The specimen material was cast upon a double sided carbon tape. My client's problem was that all the micrographs were demonstrating a considerable amount of charge which often overwhelmed the image detail.
My thoughts as we tackled the problem are written in brackets with the action undertaken being numbered.
(Starting with the specimen preparation, I do not like double sided carbon take above 100,000X as I feel the current density becomes too high and introduces material instability. The main problem is that using the desired 150,000X probably requires the upper detector and unfortunately upper detectors are able to ignore SE3. SE3 are important because they are converted backscattered electron information and backscattered electrons, to a certain extent, ignore surface charge. The conversion comes about through the BSE making contact with the lens and other chamber components producing secondary electrons to a level directly related to the amount of backscatter at any one image point. Had the magnification requirement been below 80,000X we could have used the lower detector because it receives a higher level of SE3 thus charge free operation may have been possible. People in my experience do not use the lower detector enough, they leap in possessed with the quest for high resolution, when the lower detector may give them the information with less problems. However we needed a starting point which was the clients settings with a few subtle changes).
(We needed to work under as many anti-charge parameters as possible. Staying away from a bundle of fibres and only using those that were in intimate contact with the substrate was my first change. Fibre bundles are a nightmare as you have very poor contact with earth. Then I instructed that we should work on the left hand side of a bundle to minimise discharge from two problem areas (i) The scan on most machines spends more time on the left hand side of the screen so always work to leave your last used area to the right. (ii) The last area you looked at would also be charged. Try leaving your visited areas with problems on the right it does actually minimise discharge. But first of all we needed to lower the specimen/WD.)
1. Work at 10mm, chamber/lower detector, select the edge of the bundle of nanotubes and work with bundles and previously used areas to the right of the screen.
(Results - poor resolution but no charge, so try to use a smaller aperture/probe current if there is insufficient resolution, as expected, then we will needed to move to the upper detector.)
2. Set up with the 30um aperture and lower detector.
(Improved but not good enough.)
3. Switch between lower and upper detector and compare results.
(Upper detector had insufficient signal therefore shortening the WD should improve the situation.)
4. Move to 9mm WD
(Better performance, signal is still a little poor, we need a bigger probe current, but still no charge, naturally we moved to an new area for each part of this experiment.)
5. Using the 60um aperture the image is quite good, but not good enough.
(We need Reduce the WD again)
6. Reduced to 8mm WD and the image is much stronger with little or no charge.
(Resolution is pretty good at a fast scan at 150,000X with a low level of charge at image recording speeds. Reducing to the smaller aperture may help but I was against moving to a shorter working distance at this stage.)
7. Using the 30um aperture the resolution was improved and we were able to use the appropriate image recording speeds without charge, the image was a little too noisy for me.
(We had been using 2kV so now was the time to reduce the noise level through experimenting with the accelerating voltage. Remember moving from 2 to 3 kV is the equivalent to moving from 10 to 15kV in different circumstances?)
8. We stepped from 2kV to 2.1kV, to 2.2kV, to 2.3kV and then at 2.4kV but here the charge level started to interfere with the image during image recording.
(So we now had the kV correct at 2.3 and the probe current but what about the WD, could we improve the performance further without charge?)
9. We moved to 7mm WD but even trying different areas of the specimen we were not satisfied with the amount of charge in the recorded images.
The results were presented to the client's customer who had, it appears, run the specimen with another laboratory using exactly the same instrument. He was very surprised at the quality of result my client produced, claiming he could see more detail than he had initially thought possible.
So there you are just a few hints and tips that those who asked have gained.
To summarise STATE OF THE ART SEM I hope you all agree with David and I that it is better to ASK and you should receive, be it a consultant or your instrument manufacturer.
Happy scanning
Steve
Steve Chapman FRMS Senior Consultant Protrain For consultancy and training in electron microscopy world wide Tel +44 (0)1280 816512 Fax +44 (0)1280 814007 Cell +44 (0)7711 606967 www.emcourses.com
-----Original Message----- X-from: M. David Frey [mailto:freym2-at-rpi.edu] Sent: 15 January 2010 19:53 To: protrain-at-emcourses.com Cc: Microscopy-at-microscopy.com
Hi Fred
I agree with all that you mention and I think it is important as a vendor to work hard on judging your customer.
If I run a basic residential course very few wish to attend, but run an advanced course and that creates interest. However when I start this course from the same data that is i the basic course the "advanced" users are fascinated because they too did not know! What I think we may be saying is that not all customers are up to speed on SEM in general and therefore it is tough for them to understand a State of the Art instrument.
But back to my first email. When you sell a State of the Art piece of equipment you owe it to your client to bring them up to State of the Art or in my mind what is the point of selling the equipment? All of us who have been in the business know that the more you sell, the more you sell. With that aim the better trained your new customer is the more papers they will write and the good name of your product is enhanced. That was the philosophy with which I had always worked and operating as I do now, often through personal recommendation, I agree it is important to "do a good job".
Lets await more comment
Steve
-----Original Message----- X-from: freym2-at-rpi.edu [mailto:freym2-at-rpi.edu] Sent: 14 January 2010 19:33 To: protrain-at-emcourses.com
Debby,
Thanks for adding to what I have written. I often find here at RPI, also an academic environment that the skills and knowledge a user brings into the training that is provided helps them go much farther in the quality of the images they produce. It also helps if they are interested in learning more than steps 1 through 20 in how to get an image. Understanding the "basics" of electron microscopy is a must.
X-from my prior experience as an applications person for a microscope company, we often made many assumptions to the user's basic knowledge of electron microscopy. As an aps person, we didn't always have time to fully educate the customer on the "basics" of electron microscopy, we had 2 or 3 days to get them to "know" their microscope, and then we off to home and our families or on to the next customer.
I do like the fact that there is some requirement at Purdue for the users to have a full credit course and lab behind them before they have full access to the systems. Here at RPI there are a few people trying to push that sort of requirement forward. I just always remind each user as they get trained that they can always call, asking for help is good, and no question is a stupid question.
One last idea I'd like to offer is that I take their science away from them when teaching users to use the microscope. I make them look at my samples, and they are focused on learning the basics, the controls, and the microscope itself. They aren't asking why didn't my experiment work, they are asking how do I make the picture better.
I offer that we should take the following conclusion away from this discussion: Microscope vendors train users to user their products. They aren't always to best source of basic electron microscopy education. (I think the Norm Burns said this often at Cambridge/LEICA/LEO/Zeiss). As a vendor we should leave it to the likes of Steve, Lehigh, or the old PASEM course, or the New Paltz course at the Mountain House, or the classes offered at our respective/favorite academic intuitions of choice. The microscope vendors have a wonderful pool of knowledgeable people who are tasked with selling and supporting a very technical product. At the end of the day, month, or year the bottom line to microscope vendors is how many did we sell, and how many happy customers do we have.*
David
* You can look at this as if it is driver's education, you don't see Ford, or VW teaching driver's education, they sell cars. When you pick up your new car they'll show you the basics, where the key goes, and such but it is assumed you know the rules of the road and have driver's license. :)
M. David Frey Senior Application Engineer Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute Low Center for Industrial Inn. Center for Integrated Electronics 110 8th Street CII 4161 (Office) CII 6015 (Packages and Mail) Troy, NY 12180 518-276-3323 (office) 518-698-2288 (mobile)
-----Original Message----- X-from: Sherman, Debra M [mailto:dsherman-at-purdue.edu] Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 1:25 PM To: freym2-at-rpi.edu
Dear Eric: This is a subject that has been of great interest to me over the years. I suggest the way to approach this is by making replicas of the snow crystals. Collodion in Amyl Acetate will do the trick very nicely. Put your glass slides and a dropper-bottle of say 2% collodion in amyl acetate in a box that you can put outside to drop to ambient temperature. When it snows, coat a slide with a couple of drops of the solution and hold it out in the snow to catch flakes. When you have a few, put the slide back in the box, still at ambient temperature but protected from more snow. The amyl acetate will vaporize, the collodion will harden and the snow will eventually sublime, leaving behind a perfect replica of the snow flakes, excellent for light microscopy... and even SEM, should you want to go to higher magnification. This takes some fiddling around to perfect, but I guarantee it works very well. I used it to make my Christmas cards once long ago.
Donald L. Gibbon
-----Original Message----- X-from: oshel1pe-at-cmich.edu [mailto:oshel1pe-at-cmich.edu] Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 4:57 PM To: Gibbon, Donald L.
========================================================== Forwarded from "Ask a Microscopist" Please remember that the original poster is likely not a member of MSA, and any reply should go directly to the poster as well as to the list. ==========================================================
} Subject: FW: Ask-A-Microscopist } Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 16:04:41 -0500 } } -----Original Message----- } From: Eric Coates [mailto:ericcoates-at-hotmail.com] } Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 1:35 PM } To: AssociationManagement } Subject: Ask-A-Microscopist } } Below is the result of your form, submitted on Tuesday, December 01, } 2009 at 10:35:14 AM. } } realname - Eric Coates } Email - ericcoates-at-hotmail.com } SUBJECT_OF_QUESTION - freeze substitution } QUESTION - I am looking for a way to perform freeze substitution of ice } crystals for optical, not SEM, analysis. I am familiar with one method, } described in the article "Low Temperature SEM of Precipitated and } Metamorphosed Snow Crystals Collected and Transported from Remote Sites" } that appeared in JAMA v2 n3 1996, but it involves osmium tetroxide, } which I would like to avoid. I have also tried silver nitrate with no } success. Any suggestions would be appreciated. } } Thanks } } Eric Coates } -- Philip Oshel Microscopy Facility Supervisor Biology Department 024C Brooks Hall Central Michigan University Mt. Pleasant, MI 48859 (989) 774-3576
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==============================Original Headers============================== 12, 27 -- From donald.gibbon-at-matcoinc.com Mon Jan 18 12:24:24 2010 12, 27 -- Received: from smtp1.valmont.com (smtp1.valmont.com [72.165.239.151]) 12, 27 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0IIONb9028187 12, 27 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:24:23 -0600 12, 27 -- X-TM-IMSS-Message-ID: {349040b80004be96-at-smtp1.valmont.com} 12, 27 -- Received: from valmailbh1.na.valmont.com ([172.16.0.51]) by smtp1.valmont.com ([192.168.123.151]) with ESMTP (TREND IMSS SMTP Service 7.0) id 349040b80004be96 ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:24:18 -0600 12, 27 -- Received: from valmail.na.valmont.com ([172.16.1.35]) by valmailbh1.na.valmont.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); 12, 27 -- Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:24:20 -0600 12, 27 -- X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 12, 27 -- Content-class: urn:content-classes:message 12, 27 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 12, 27 -- Content-Type: text/plain; 12, 27 -- charset="us-ascii" 12, 27 -- Subject: RE: [Microscopy] Fwd: FW: Ask-A-Microscopist 12, 27 -- Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:23:23 -0600 12, 27 -- Message-ID: {AE9049B5C6BD064BA3F0B94A1F985BA701AEB439-at-valmail.na.valmont.com} 12, 27 -- In-Reply-To: {201001152156.o0FLutfv018660-at-ns.microscopy.com} 12, 27 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: 12, 27 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 12, 27 -- Thread-Topic: [Microscopy] Fwd: FW: Ask-A-Microscopist 12, 27 -- Thread-Index: AcqWLaikI9zxW9PPQHaicB67B52q6gCPWlug 12, 27 -- References: {201001152156.o0FLutfv018660-at-ns.microscopy.com} 12, 27 -- From: "Gibbon, Donald L." {donald.gibbon-at-matcoinc.com} 12, 27 -- To: {oshel1pe-at-cmich.edu} , {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 12, 27 -- X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Jan 2010 18:24:20.0273 (UTC) FILETIME=[73A70A10:01CA986B] 12, 27 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 12, 27 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0IIONb9028187 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
I was involved in quite a lot of teeth work some long time ago. Teeth are porous and result in two things, charging and SLOW pump down. These trapped gasses also contaminated the surface during imaging. Those days we did not had the fancy lower dirty vacuum options like today. We resulted in leaving the sample in a high vacuum coater overnight to get a really good pump down, then C-coated it, flushed the chamber with Ar gas or dry nitrogen gas till room pressure after coating. Au-Pd coated it afterwards over the C at the highest possible vacuum the coater will work. Then 10kv at the lowest possible probe current we could get a reasonable image.
Today I would go for C-coat and low kv feg in a low vacuum mode if I have the option. But I will not bypass the C-coat prior to another coating technique since you get a fairly even film at great vacuum levels.
Just a early morning thought.
Stephan Coetzee EM Scientist EMU University of Botswana
On Sun, Jan 17, 2010 at 1:19 AM, {gary-at-gaugler.com} wrote: } } } } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of America } To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver } On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } Au is not my choice for anything being coated. It produces } a spider web characteristic if not done at high vacuum. } Try Au/Pd or Ir at 30mT and don't worry all that much } about film thickness. 50nm or thereabouts should work fine. } } gary g. } } } At 02:05 PM 1/16/2010, you wrote: } } } } } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of America } } To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver
-- Stephan H Coetzee Chief Technician Electron Microscope Unit University of Botswana
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Since I'm doing "Ask a Microscopist" now, I don't feel I should give recommendations. Perhaps some of the folks Down Under would care to respond?
Phil
========================================================== Forwarded from "Ask a Microscopist" Please remember that the original poster is likely not a member of MSA, and any reply should go directly to the poster as well as to the list. ========================================================== } -----Original Message----- } From: L Wu [mailto:wehi618-at-yahoo.com] } Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 3:21 AM } To: AssociationManagement } Subject: Ask-A-Microscopist } } Below is the result of your form, submitted on Tuesday, January 19, 2010 } at 12:20:31 AM. } } realname - L Wu } Email - wehi618-at-yahoo.com } ORGANIZATION - University of Melbourne } EDUCATION - Graduate College } LOCATION - Melbourne, Australia } SUBJECT_OF_QUESTION - Inverted microscope } QUESTION - The lab I am working in is planning to purchase an Inverted } Flourescent Microscope. The models we are interested are Nikon Ti-S and } Olympus IX71. We'd appreciate information or comments on the Pro and } Conts of these two models. } } Many thanks. } -- Philip Oshel Microscopy Facility Supervisor Biology Department 024C Brooks Hall Central Michigan University Mt. Pleasant, MI 48859 (989) 774-3576
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I represent an excellent scientist with PhD and 6 years experience in private and public companies, post degree. Analytic skills on TEM plus failure analysis and quality control experience, X-Ray Diffraction etc. Employers please contact me directly at jeff-at-tss-consulting.com or 941-475-6270.
A Research Associate position is available immediately in the laboratory of Svetla Stoilova-McPhie to study the structure and conformations of membrane-bound blood coagulation complexes by combining Cryo-electron microscopy and biophysical methods. The main project will involve 2D and helical crystallization of blood coagulation factors and complexes onto functionalized lipid monolayers and lipid nanotubes, followed by Cryo-EM and structure analysis. The lipid-protein systems will be also characterised by various light scattering and spectroscopic techniques to elucidate fully the structure-function relationship in the context of membrane-binding. The Sealy Centre for Structural Biology and Molecular Biophysics at UTMB http://www.scsb.utmb.edu/, includes also a state-of-the art Cryo-EM facility. This project is furthermore in collaboration with the NCMI centre at Baylor College of Medicine, equipped with the latest technology in Cryo-EM and structure analysis: http://ncmi.bcm.tmc.edu/ncmi/. The lab has the latest model CD-spectrophotometer with fluorescence and Peltier device (Jasco J815), as well as all protein and tissue culture facilities; fluorescence and confocal microscopy. The ideal candidate should have strong background in protein biochemistry and interest in structural biology. The successful applicant should have previous experience in protein biochemistry and analytical methods for protein analysis. Proficiency in basic biochemical techniques, HPLC, SDS-PAGE and UV-VIS spectroscopy are necessary. Excellent time management skills, strong communication and interpersonal skills are essential. Prior experience in lipid chemistry and membrane biology, as well as in fluorescence, CD and confocal microscopy or/and structural biology will be a plus, but not essential. Candidates with Ph.D. or M.Sc. considering furthering their research career at the interface between biomedical sciences and nanotechnology are encouraged to apply. Please send your current CV and three references to Dr. Svetla Stoilova-McPhie at svmcphie-at-utmb.edu {mailto:svmcphie-at-utmb.edu} , Department of Neuroscience and Cell Biology, University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston: www.utmb.edu {http://www.utmb.edu/} UTMB is also part of the Gulf Coast Consortia http://cohesion.rice.edu/centersandinst/gcc/
Svetla Stoilova-McPhie, PhD Assistant Professor, Department of Neuroscience and Cell Biology Scientist, Sealy Centre for Structural Biology and Molecular Biophysics University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston 301 University Boulevard, Galveston, Texas 77555-0620 Cell: (+1) 281-229-2261 Fax: (1+) 409-747-2200 Email: svmcphie-at-utmb.edu
==============================Original Headers============================== 3, 28 -- From svmcphie-at-utmb.edu Tue Jan 19 16:12:44 2010 3, 28 -- Received: from mx4.utmb.edu (mx4.utmb.edu [129.109.195.9]) 3, 28 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0JMCiBF000621 3, 28 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 16:12:44 -0600 3, 28 -- Received: from expf1.utmb.edu (expf1.utmb.edu [129.109.116.226]) 3, 28 -- by mx4.utmb.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o0JMChGk006930 3, 28 -- (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) 3, 28 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 16:12:44 -0600 3, 28 -- Received: from EXCHANGE4.utmb.edu ([129.109.116.11]) by expf1.utmb.edu 3, 28 -- ([129.109.116.226]) with mapi; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 16:12:43 -0600 3, 28 -- From: "Stoilova-McPhie, Svetla" {svmcphie-at-utmb.edu} 3, 28 -- To: "Microscopy-at-microscopy.com" {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 3, 28 -- Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 16:12:42 -0600 3, 28 -- Subject: Research associate position 3, 28 -- Thread-Topic: Research associate position 3, 28 -- Thread-Index: AQHKmVSFdbaZSQAJZUOoy58gu+KL7g== 3, 28 -- Message-ID: {981C42C3AD3C6D489252BB66CD90374516BBED40B2-at-EXCHANGE4.utmb.edu} 3, 28 -- Accept-Language: en-US 3, 28 -- Content-Language: en-US 3, 28 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: 3, 28 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 3, 28 -- acceptlanguage: en-US 3, 28 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" 3, 28 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 3, 28 -- X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=1.12.8161:2.4.5,1.2.40,4.0.166 definitions=2010-01-19_17:2010-01-05,2010-01-19,2010-01-19 signatures=0 3, 28 -- X-Proofpoint-Spam-Reason: safe 3, 28 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 3, 28 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0JMCiBF000621 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
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Email: Stacy.Gates-at-utoledo.edu Name: Stacy
Organization: University of Toledo Instrumentation Center
Title-Subject: [Filtered] SEM GIVEAWAY!
Message: The University of Toledo is looking to pass on our current SEM to another institution. The instrument has been fully functional and under service contract until January 2010; when it was shut down in preparation for the new instrument. The instrument we are looking to pass on is a JEOL JSM- 6100. We are not charging a fee for the instrument itself, however it will be the responsibility of the recipient to fund any transport fees associated with the move. If you are interested, or know someone who may be interested, in acquiring this piece of equipment please contact the University of Toledo Instrumentation Center at (419) 530-7899 or (419) 530-7487 immediately; as this will be handled on a first come first serve basis
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Email: drg.mitchell-at-sydney.edu.au Name: David Mitchell
Organization: EMU, University of Sydney
Title-Subject: [Filtered] TEM: EELSTools plugin for DigitalMicrograph
Message: Dear All If you use Gatan's DigitalMicrograph for EELS spectroscopy, then the EELSTools plugin for DigitalMicrograph may be of interest to you. It was jointly developed over several years by myself and Bernhard Schaffer. The software consists of a choice of plugins for hardware-connected or offline systems; an example EELS data cube to experiment with; a detailed instruction manual and an uninstaller. Installation is straightforward and no scripting knowledge is needed. The package includes twenty different tools for acquiring EELS data from Gatan Energy Filters, processing/measuring/formatting spectra and a number of useful calculators for calculating and displaying EELS data. The software can be downloaded free of charge from the following URL: http://www.dmscripting.com/eelstools.html Regards Dave Mitchell
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Email: msanders-at-umn.edu Name: Mark Sanders
Organization: University of Minnesota, Imaging Center
Title-Subject: [Filtered] Full-time technical position
Message: The Imaging Center in the College of Biological Sciences at University of Minnesota (http://www.cbs.umn.edu/ic/) is hiring a full-time technical staff member who will work the many users of this established facility.
We're looking for someone with a solid understanding of the principles of microscopy and experience in modern forms of microscopy--in particular scanning electron microscopy and/or confocal and widefield microscopy, image analysis, processing and output. The ideal candidate would have a strong background in both microscopy, biology and sample preparation, with an enthusiasm for computing, cutting-edge knowledge of microscopy and imaging and good people/communications skills.
Those interested should apply on-line at http://www1.umn.edu/ohr/employment . The job requisition number is: 164820 .
The University of Minnesota is an equal opportunity educator and employer.
Feel free to contact me off list (msanders-at-umn.edu) with any questions.
Thanks!
Mark Sanders msanders-at-umn.edu Program Director CBS Imaging Center
This Question/Comment was submitted to the Microscopy Listserver using the WWW based Form at http://microscopy.com/MLFormMail.html --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Remember this posting is most likely not from a Subscriber, so when replying please copy both d33-at-ornl.gov as well as the MIcroscopy Listserver ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Email: d33-at-ornl.gov Name: Donovan N. Leonard
Organization: UT-Knoxville/ORNL Mat. Sci.
Title-Subject: [Filtered] SEM Outreach Opportunity Needed: NYC/metro area
Message: Dear Colleagues,
The Pratt Institute (Brooklyn, NY) architecture research studio is requesting a few hours of SEM time in the NYC metro area for 10 students. The professor for the course, Jonas Coersmeier, has created a novel interdisciplinary design and research studio in which students utilize micro and nano-scale patterns found in nature as inspiration for long span architectural structures. If interested, involvement in studio discourse as guest critic or lecturer is possible. In the past students have chosen their own samples and acquired micrographs themselves with a SEM, then used features from the micrographs as base units for larger architectural design. The research studio students have blogged about their experiences learning about nanotechnology, electron microscopy and the process of architectural design. Please visit any of the blogs listed below or reference the Microscopy Today article to learn more about this novel design studio.
If you can donate some time for students on a SEM to acquire micrographs for their design studio project, please contact Prof. Jonas Coersmeier by email at ëjpc61-at-columbia.eduí. This is a great outreach opportunity.
Many thanks in advance. Donovan
ps -I am posting this for Jonas because in the past I have been involved with his design studio and found it an enriching experience. Anytime students, not involved STEM related studies, can be inspired and excited by microscopy is, it is worth the extra effort. Iím hoping to continue my collaboration with Pratt and would be happy to provide more information or answer questions if you contact me offline at ëd33-at-ornl.goví.
Microscopy Today Article http://www.probelog.com/span/MT-Coersmeier_Leonard.pdf Design Studio Blogs http://www.probelog.com/span/ http://www.probelog.com/sem/
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Email: wei.kong-at-oregonstate.edu Name: Wei Kong
Organization: Oregon State University
Title-Subject: [Filtered] Open postdoctoral position
Message: An immediate opening for a postdoctoral position is available at Oregon State University. The project involves electron diffraction of laser oriented molecules embedded in superfluid helium droplets. Experience in coherent x-ray or electron diffraction is preferred but not mandated. The individual needs to have a solid background in physics, optics, and electronics, and extensive hands on experience in one of the fields. Intellectual curiosity and willingness to step into unfamiliar disciplines are essential qualities. Candidates should send their curriculum vitae with 3 reference letters to Wei Kong, Department of Chemistry, Oregon State University, Corvallis, OR 97331. The position is open until filled. Oregon State University is an AA/EOE.
Announcing the 2010 Meeting of THE TEXAS SOCIETY FOR MICROSCOPY “Embracing All Forms of Microscopy”
Meeting Dates: April 15-17, 2010 Hilton Garden Inn, Frisco, TX First Call for Papers
Invited Speakers: Freshman Phage Hunters: Integrating a Research-based Experience into Freshman Biology for Majors by Dr. Lee Hughes
Failure Analysis Strategies in Electronics Industry - Past, Present and Future by Dr. Puligandla Viswanadham
Other information and registration forms can be found on our web site: http://www.texasmicroscopy.org/.
-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Becky Holdford (r-holdford-at-ti.com) 972-995-2360 972-648-8743 (pager) SC Packaging FA Texas Instruments, Inc. 13536 N. Central Expressway MS 940 Dallas, TX 75243 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
==============================Original Headers============================== 7, 21 -- From r-holdford-at-ti.com Mon Jan 25 18:16:06 2010 7, 21 -- Received: from devils.ext.ti.com (devils.ext.ti.com [198.47.26.153]) 7, 21 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0Q0G6Ql014332 7, 21 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 18:16:06 -0600 7, 21 -- Received: from dlep36.itg.ti.com ([157.170.170.91]) 7, 21 -- by devils.ext.ti.com (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o0Q0G6fL014822 7, 21 -- (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) 7, 21 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 18:16:06 -0600 7, 21 -- Received: from [156.117.248.174] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) 7, 21 -- by dlep36.itg.ti.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o0Q0G52C001474 7, 21 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 18:16:06 -0600 (CST) 7, 21 -- Message-ID: {4B5E3445.1020004-at-ti.com} 7, 21 -- Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 18:16:05 -0600 7, 21 -- From: Becky Holdford {r-holdford-at-ti.com} 7, 21 -- Organization: SC Packaging Development -- FA Development 7, 21 -- User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.1.5) Gecko/20091204 Thunderbird/3.0 7, 21 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 7, 21 -- To: MSA Listserver {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 7, 21 -- Subject: Texas Society for Microscopy Spring Meeting Apr. 15-17, 2010 7, 21 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed 7, 21 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ==============================End of - Headers==============================
Well, it has been a long time since I have seen anything about Liquid Nitrogen Safety on the listserver, but when I stumbled across this, I just had to share it. Apparently at SLAC, which is the Stanford Linear Accelerator, they have a SLAC Family Day, SLAC Take our children to Work Day, during which they make ice cream by mixing cream, sugar and LIQUID NITROGEN in bowls for kids, with children right there. They even let the children STICK THEIR FINGERS IN THE LIQUID NITROGEN (well, only for one second)! I'm not making this up! Here is a web site describing it: http://keithjobe.com/ice-cream.html
Well, I would not let MY daughter stick her finger in liquid nitrogen, but apparently some parents are, although the Stanford safety people seem to take a dim view of this.
John Mardinly Western Digital
==============================Original Headers============================== 5, 23 -- From John.Mardinly-at-wdc.com Mon Jan 25 18:54:10 2010 5, 23 -- Received: from wdscexfe02.sc.wdc.com (wdscexfe02.sc.wdc.com [129.253.170.52]) 5, 23 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0Q0sAiT029784 5, 23 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 18:54:10 -0600 5, 23 -- Received: from wdksjexbe01.msj.wdc.com ([172.19.100.67]) by wdscexfe02.sc.wdc.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); 5, 23 -- Mon, 25 Jan 2010 16:54:09 -0800 5, 23 -- X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 5, 23 -- Content-class: urn:content-classes:message 5, 23 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 5, 23 -- Content-Type: text/plain; 5, 23 -- charset="us-ascii" 5, 23 -- Subject: Liquid Nitrogen Safety 5, 23 -- Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 16:54:06 -0800 5, 23 -- Message-ID: {34061960C62E274C8AF1DCAA65655558071A6AD0-at-wdksjexbe01.msj.wdc.com} 5, 23 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: 5, 23 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 5, 23 -- Thread-Topic: Liquid Nitrogen Safety 5, 23 -- Thread-Index: AcqeIg/VDlxg3FOyR2utdIGDPnyvkg== 5, 23 -- From: "John Mardinly" {John.Mardinly-at-wdc.com} 5, 23 -- To: {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 5, 23 -- X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Jan 2010 00:54:09.0322 (UTC) FILETIME=[1180F0A0:01CA9E22] 5, 23 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 5, 23 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0Q0sAiT029784 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
The idea is that one's mouth or hand is so hot compared to the liquid nitrogen that there is a thin gaseous layer of nitrogen isolating the skin from the liquid nitrogen.
But I sure wouldn't do it, and I don't encourage anyone else to try it either.
Best, Ellery
----------------- Ellery Frahm Senior Research Fellow, Department of Geology & Geophysics Manager & Principal Analyst, Electron Microprobe Lab University of Minnesota - Twin Cities campus Lab website: http://probelab.geo.umn.edu/ Personal: http://web.mac.com/elleryfrahm/
On Jan 25, 2010, at 6:58 PM, John.Mardinly-at-wdc.com wrote:
} } } } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of America } To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver } On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } Well, it has been a long time since I have seen anything about Liquid } Nitrogen Safety on the listserver, but when I stumbled across this, I just } had to share it. Apparently at SLAC, which is the Stanford Linear } Accelerator, they have a SLAC Family Day, SLAC Take our children to Work } Day, during which they make ice cream by mixing cream, sugar and LIQUID } NITROGEN in bowls for kids, with children right there. They even let the } children STICK THEIR FINGERS IN THE LIQUID NITROGEN (well, only for one } second)! I'm not making this up! Here is a web site describing it: } http://keithjobe.com/ice-cream.html } } Well, I would not let MY daughter stick her finger in liquid nitrogen, but } apparently some parents are, although the Stanford safety people seem to } take a dim view of this. } } } John Mardinly } Western Digital } } } } ==============================Original Headers============================== } 5, 23 -- From John.Mardinly-at-wdc.com Mon Jan 25 18:54:10 2010 } 5, 23 -- Received: from wdscexfe02.sc.wdc.com (wdscexfe02.sc.wdc.com [129.253.170.52]) } 5, 23 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0Q0sAiT029784 } 5, 23 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 18:54:10 -0600 } 5, 23 -- Received: from wdksjexbe01.msj.wdc.com ([172.19.100.67]) by wdscexfe02.sc.wdc.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); } 5, 23 -- Mon, 25 Jan 2010 16:54:09 -0800 } 5, 23 -- X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 } 5, 23 -- Content-class: urn:content-classes:message } 5, 23 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 } 5, 23 -- Content-Type: text/plain; } 5, 23 -- charset="us-ascii" } 5, 23 -- Subject: Liquid Nitrogen Safety } 5, 23 -- Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 16:54:06 -0800 } 5, 23 -- Message-ID: {34061960C62E274C8AF1DCAA65655558071A6AD0-at-wdksjexbe01.msj.wdc.com} } 5, 23 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: } 5, 23 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: } 5, 23 -- Thread-Topic: Liquid Nitrogen Safety } 5, 23 -- Thread-Index: AcqeIg/VDlxg3FOyR2utdIGDPnyvkg== } 5, 23 -- From: "John Mardinly" {John.Mardinly-at-wdc.com} } 5, 23 -- To: {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} } 5, 23 -- X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Jan 2010 00:54:09.0322 (UTC) FILETIME=[1180F0A0:01CA9E22] } 5, 23 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit } 5, 23 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0Q0sAiT029784 } ==============================End of - Headers==============================
==============================Original Headers============================== 18, 21 -- From frah0010-at-umn.edu Mon Jan 25 19:20:06 2010 18, 21 -- Received: from vs-m.tc.umn.edu (vs-m.tc.umn.edu [134.84.135.97]) 18, 21 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0Q1K6hI012446 18, 21 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 19:20:06 -0600 18, 21 -- Received: from [10.0.1.199] (c-75-72-182-206.hsd1.mn.comcast.net [75.72.182.206]) 18, 21 -- by vs-m.tc.umn.edu (UMN smtpd) with ESMTP 18, 21 -- Mon, 25 Jan 2010 19:20:04 -0600 (CST) 18, 21 -- X-Umn-Remote-Mta: [N] c-75-72-182-206.hsd1.mn.comcast.net [75.72.182.206] #+TS+AU+HN 18, 21 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] Liquid Nitrogen Safety 18, 21 -- Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) 18, 21 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii 18, 21 -- From: Ellery Frahm {frah0010-at-umn.edu} 18, 21 -- In-Reply-To: {201001260058.o0Q0w6CF004597-at-ns.microscopy.com} 18, 21 -- Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 19:20:02 -0600 18, 21 -- Cc: John.Mardinly-at-wdc.com 18, 21 -- Message-Id: {1A43667B-C4A5-4D7B-B495-B43FE14A5AEE-at-umn.edu} 18, 21 -- References: {201001260058.o0Q0w6CF004597-at-ns.microscopy.com} 18, 21 -- To: microscopy-at-microscopy.com 18, 21 -- X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) 18, 21 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 18, 21 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0Q1K6hI012446 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
OMG, the liquid nitrogen ice cream URL looks like a lawsuit waiting to happen. Liquid nitrogen and chillin' are a dangerous combination. (Sorry, but the pun just jumped out!)
Some may have heard of Dippin' Dots, a commercially-available ice cream produced by flash freezing droplets of ice cream using liquid nitrogen. The inventor, Curt D. Jones, is a microbiologist and graduate of our university. I have not yet tried the ice cream but hear that it's delightful.
John Bozzola Chillin' at The SIU IMAGE Center Carbondale, IL
==============================Original Headers============================== 5, 17 -- From bozzola-at-siu.edu Mon Jan 25 19:30:01 2010 5, 17 -- Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com (mail-yx0-f189.google.com [209.85.210.189]) 5, 17 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0Q1Tw7Y027200 5, 17 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 19:30:00 -0600 5, 17 -- Received: by yxe27 with SMTP id 27so3068828yxe.10 5, 17 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 17:29:57 -0800 (PST) 5, 17 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 5, 17 -- Received: by 10.150.166.15 with SMTP id o15mr7207060ybe.306.1264469397066; 5, 17 -- Mon, 25 Jan 2010 17:29:57 -0800 (PST) 5, 17 -- In-Reply-To: {201001260054.o0Q0swpA031037-at-ns.microscopy.com} 5, 17 -- References: {201001260054.o0Q0swpA031037-at-ns.microscopy.com} 5, 17 -- Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 19:29:57 -0600 5, 17 -- Message-ID: {ebc2299e1001251729i6148ddeas1c09ac07c2b11a7c-at-mail.gmail.com} 5, 17 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] Liquid Nitrogen Safety 5, 17 -- From: John Bozzola {bozzola-at-siu.edu} 5, 17 -- To: MSAListserver {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 5, 17 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
Some chemical engineering students here at Iowa State University developed a process for using LN2 to make really creamy ice cream back in 1999. They were probably fooling around in the lab for a while before that. One of the principals, Will Schroeder, used our JEOL 840A SEM under my tutelage. Here's their web site. http://www.blueskycreamery.com/ or you can check out a NY Times article on them at http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/10/dining/10nitr.html
I've poured LN2 across my hands. I haven't tried sticking my finger into a dewar of it - yet. I know that the extreme temperature difference is what keeps you from freezing. I had a prof in a mass transfer class explaining it as the leidenfrost effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leidenfrost_effect). It's what causes water droplets to dance around on a very hot griddle whereas they would quickly spread and evaporate on a not so hot griddle. The vapor layor that forms really slows the heat transfer. Even then, the droplet does eventually heat up and steam away - and so would your finger chill and freeze.
Like they say, don't try this at home, but I am sure some will anyway.
Warren Straszheim ________________________________________ X-from: bozzola-at-siu.edu [bozzola-at-siu.edu] Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 7:30 PM To: wesaia-at-iastate.edu
John,
OMG, the liquid nitrogen ice cream URL looks like a lawsuit waiting to happen. Liquid nitrogen and chillin' are a dangerous combination. (Sorry, but the pun just jumped out!)
Some may have heard of Dippin' Dots, a commercially-available ice cream produced by flash freezing droplets of ice cream using liquid nitrogen. The inventor, Curt D. Jones, is a microbiologist and graduate of our university. I have not yet tried the ice cream but hear that it's delightful.
John Bozzola Chillin' at The SIU IMAGE Center Carbondale, IL
==============================Original Headers============================== 5, 17 -- From bozzola-at-siu.edu Mon Jan 25 19:30:01 2010 5, 17 -- Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com (mail-yx0-f189.google.com [209.85.210.189]) 5, 17 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0Q1Tw7Y027200 5, 17 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 19:30:00 -0600 5, 17 -- Received: by yxe27 with SMTP id 27so3068828yxe.10 5, 17 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 17:29:57 -0800 (PST) 5, 17 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 5, 17 -- Received: by 10.150.166.15 with SMTP id o15mr7207060ybe.306.1264469397066; 5, 17 -- Mon, 25 Jan 2010 17:29:57 -0800 (PST) 5, 17 -- In-Reply-To: {201001260054.o0Q0swpA031037-at-ns.microscopy.com} 5, 17 -- References: {201001260054.o0Q0swpA031037-at-ns.microscopy.com} 5, 17 -- Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 19:29:57 -0600 5, 17 -- Message-ID: {ebc2299e1001251729i6148ddeas1c09ac07c2b11a7c-at-mail.gmail.com} 5, 17 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] Liquid Nitrogen Safety 5, 17 -- From: John Bozzola {bozzola-at-siu.edu} 5, 17 -- To: MSAListserver {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 5, 17 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
==============================Original Headers============================== 11, 35 -- From wesaia-at-iastate.edu Mon Jan 25 20:21:29 2010 11, 35 -- Received: from mailhub-3.iastate.edu (mailhub-3.iastate.edu [129.186.140.13]) 11, 35 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0Q2LSDN010535 11, 35 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 20:21:29 -0600 11, 35 -- Received: from devirus-11.iastate.edu (devirus-11.iastate.edu [129.186.1.48]) 11, 35 -- by mailhub-3.iastate.edu (8.12.11.20060614/8.12.10) with SMTP id o0Q2LSpe030633 11, 35 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 20:21:28 -0600 11, 35 -- Received: from (despam-10.iastate.edu [129.186.140.80]) by devirus-11.iastate.edu with smtp 11, 35 -- id 4b05_82b0f192_0a21_11df_87c6_001372578af6; 11, 35 -- Mon, 25 Jan 2010 20:21:28 -0600 11, 35 -- Received: from EXITS702.ITS.IASTATE.EDU (exits702a.its.iastate.edu [10.10.87.140]) 11, 35 -- by despam-10.iastate.edu (8.14.2/8.12.10) with ESMTP id o0Q2LSre031084 11, 35 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 20:21:28 -0600 11, 35 -- Received: from EXITS711.its.iastate.edu ([fe80::c188:d0b1:b27e:bfef]) by 11, 35 -- EXITS702A.its.iastate.edu ([::1]) with mapi; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 20:21:26 -0600 11, 35 -- From: "Straszheim, Warren E [M S E]" {wesaia-at-iastate.edu} 11, 35 -- To: "Microscopy-at-microscopy.com" {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 11, 35 -- Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 20:21:27 -0600 11, 35 -- Subject: RE: [Microscopy] Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety 11, 35 -- Thread-Topic: [Microscopy] Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety 11, 35 -- Thread-Index: AcqeJyZbCJ5lap5NQaOV9AYstKfA7gABf+dW 11, 35 -- Message-ID: {B4F01E5CE39E5A409A832B5F2038A2984BE3093227-at-EXITS711.its.iastate.edu} 11, 35 -- References: {201001260130.o0Q1UTdH028187-at-ns.microscopy.com} 11, 35 -- In-Reply-To: {201001260130.o0Q1UTdH028187-at-ns.microscopy.com} 11, 35 -- Accept-Language: en-US 11, 35 -- Content-Language: en-US 11, 35 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: 11, 35 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 11, 35 -- acceptlanguage: en-US 11, 35 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 11, 35 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 11, 35 -- X-PMX-Version: 5.5.3.366731, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.0.366912, Antispam-Data: 2010.1.26.15719 11, 35 -- X-ISUMailhub-test: Gauge=X, Probability=10%, Report='TO_IN_SUBJECT 0.5, BODY_PARA_IS_SENTENCE_URL 0.1, SUPERLONG_LINE 0.05, BODY_SIZE_3000_3999 0, BODY_SIZE_5000_LESS 0, BODY_SIZE_7000_LESS 0, ECARD_KNOWN_DOMAINS 0, TO_NO_NAME 0, __BOUNCE_CHALLENGE_SUBJ 0, __BOUNCE_NDR_SUBJ_EXEMPT 0, __CP_MEDIA_BODY 0, __CP_URI_IN_BODY 0, __CT 0, __CTE 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __MIME_TEXT_ONLY 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __SANE_MSGID 0, __STOCK_PHRASE_24 0, __TO_MALFORMED_2 0' 11, 35 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 11, 35 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0Q2LSDN010535 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
Way back when, Chuck Fiori used to put on a demo with LN2 at the LeHigh SEM school. Chuck wanted to show that sometimes its more hazardous to trap LN2 against the body with protective gear than to give the liedenfrost effect room to create its protective blanket of gas. If the LN2 was provided, he would eventually take some into his mouth and blow 'smoke' rings. He told of a time when he accidentally swallowed some of the LN2 and the resulting stomach gas pressure caused him to black out, falling to the stage unconscious. Ultimately the excess pressure relieved itself as a belch and Chuck came to. Chuck certainly taught me things in ways that I remember!
==============================Original Headers============================== 1, 25 -- From richard.ross-at-allisontransmission.com Tue Jan 26 07:53:09 2010 1, 25 -- Received: from plmler2.mail.eds.com (plmler2.mail.eds.com [199.228.142.72]) 1, 25 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0QDr9dN015534 1, 25 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 07:53:09 -0600 1, 25 -- Received: from plmlir1.mail.eds.com (plmlir1-2.mail.eds.com [199.228.142.131]) 1, 25 -- by plmler2.mail.eds.com (8.14.2/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o0QDr9vK015878 1, 25 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 07:53:09 -0600 1, 25 -- Received: from plmlir1.mail.eds.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) 1, 25 -- by plmlir1.mail.eds.com (8.14.2/8.12.10) with ESMTP id o0QDqvQb024949 1, 25 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 07:52:57 -0600 1, 25 -- Received: from USAT0EM0AD01.MAIL.ATI.INT ([143.242.253.24]) 1, 25 -- by plmlir1.mail.eds.com (8.14.2/8.12.10) with ESMTP id o0QDqu6m024944 1, 25 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 07:52:57 -0600 1, 25 -- X-EDSINT-Source-Ip: 143.242.253.24 1, 25 -- To: microscopy-at-microscopy.com 1, 25 -- Subject: [Microscopy] Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety 1, 25 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 1, 25 -- X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.4 HF1151 March 27, 2007 1, 25 -- Message-ID: {OFF2CF22A0.AE9EFEF5-ON852576B7.004A74BF-852576B7.004C464E-at-mail.ati.int} 1, 25 -- From: richard.ross-at-allisontransmission.com 1, 25 -- Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 08:52:56 -0500 1, 25 -- X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on USAT0EM0AD01/ADMINHG/ATISERVER/ATI(Release 8.0.1|February 1, 25 -- 07, 2008) at 01/26/2010 08:52:57 AM, 1, 25 -- Serialize complete at 01/26/2010 08:52:57 AM 1, 25 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" ==============================End of - Headers==============================
Good morning, good afternoon, good evening - hopefully any somewhere will apply, hello, dear colleagues,
Just to add my 2 €-cents (apologize if the message became too long):
Yes, we can discuss about children STICK THEIR FINGERS IN THE LIQUID NITROGEN and other stuff.... in general, since in EM we sometimes have to work with 'cruel' things and substances (and others a little bit more often). Cryogenics also CAN be hazardous (as } hot { water is/can be), depending on how we are } working with { it. If we couldn't do that safe(ly) it necessarily / perhaps would have been forbidden for a long time.
There are a lot of sources on the web one can find concerning use and misuse of e. g. liquid nitrogen: for example:
http://www.altair.org/hazard.html (DONT DIE ! Laboratory Hazards: Safety, Prevention, First Aid, C 2001-2010)
http://www.reachoutmichigan.org/funexperiments/agesubject/lessons/nitrogen.html ( "Fun experiments" website last updated 2003)
http://smb.slac.stanford.edu/users_guide/manual/Experiment_policies.html#SECTION00027000000000000000 (describes hazards and proper handling procedures for work with liquid nitrogen, 2010)
http://stores.biochem.uiowa.edu/Pages/ln2msds.htm ("old" but IMO "good" example for a US-Univ's Safety Data Sheet)
Also, some Labs are questioning in advance for safety issues on the things someone will bring into the Lab: e.g. http://www.sbc.anl.gov/pdfs/hazard_assessment_form.pdf (take a look for 'cryogens', Argonne Natl. Lab, SBC Hazard Assessment Form), perhaps just to be on the safe side for their own staff people and Lab's interior.
AND finally, YES, LN2-ingestion - to take a mouthfull of LN2 and blast it off - only for the EXPERIENCED CAN BE a junky-funky trick, BUT - on the other side - for the unexperienced (unfortunately also for the 'careless' experienced I have to admit!) - it could be not only dangerous but LIFE threatening: cf. http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/reprint/105/1/121 ( Benjamin Z. Koplewitz, et al.... Gastric Perforation Attributable to Liquid Nitrogen Ingestion, in: Pediatrics 2000;105;121-123, open Access)
A similar situation has been reported on http://www.darwinawards.com/personal/personal2000-25.html, which eventually was } awarded { with the DARWIN AWARD in 2000 (==} cit: "The Darwin Awards salute the improvement of the human genome by honoring those who accidentally remove themselves from it..." end of cit.)
I personally have no doubt that it IS possible (and I have done that for demonstration of "Leidenfrost phenomenon" a lot of times way back...) to place one or two fingers, eventually(and forsure) the whole hand into liquid nitrogen for 1-2 seconds, PROVIDED some necessary PREREQUISITES which - IN ADVANCE - have to be theoretically explained and are to be met to/for those } trying { such an "adventure" and IMO only should be done in a SUPERVISED situation.
Despite (or better: BECAUSE) respecting all those "little" {problem-makers} in our daily work (if this is not done by other staff members, I have to to do such work literally by myself) I am not in a blue funk of perhaps desastrous results of using/handling all those substances like OsO4 (hazard, toxic), p-phenylenediamine (pesticide, toxic), uranyl-acetate from stock powder (radioactive), cryogens (like LN2, precooled isobutane, also Freon gas [some residual inventory] if the pressurized can will be used inverted) and other substances/chemicals (mostly used in very small quantities), not to forget all those "may be hazardous resins" out in the dark...
WHY I am NOT AFRAID/do not fear those: since I have learned - before handling and using those - WHAT the respective properties of materials/substances/fluids are, HOW they have ( practically ) to be used safely, WHAT the consequences eventually will be (personal and for others) if handled unsafe, and HOW to dispose of (remnants, by-products of reactions, etc.) properly.
(as an example for awareness: read: http://www.hull.ac.uk/chemstores/coshhadv.html (COSHH- Control of Substances Hazardous to Health, Univ.Hull, UK: 'part of the U.K.'s CRIMINAL LAW' !)
Anybody who has {studied} properties of chemicals etc., their handling and use properly and correctly will know how to proceed with the use of material and substances we use in an EM-lab. If this has not be done, no one should do } things { he never got explained and does not know about consequences in case of misuse.
There IMO is no need to disallow or eventually prohibit (necessary) actions which to the unexperienced (perhaps) will be harmful, but to the experienced does not apply seriously. So, last but not least: it is the responsibilty of the "experienced" to teach the unexperienced... so you as the {experienced} decide what can be done/shown and what CANNOT be done /shown.
Concerning: Ice-Cream-experiments with LN2, those perhaps are an "interesting" demonstration for a new practical application but easily can/could be safely substituted by {old fashioned} ice-cream-making (e.g lowering the temperature of the fluids by using eg. the pot-freezer method: the temperature of the ingredients is reduced by placing them inside a tub filled with ice and salt) Cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_cream .
At the end: just only pointing to the long MSA thread on } N2 gas-LN2 { starting May 2nd 2009 Conc: [Microscopy] Nitrogen leak (JEOL 6701F SEM)
Regards, Wolfgang MUSS Head EM-Lab, Pathology SALK-LKH (Gen. Hosp.) SALZBURG Austria
} -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- } Von: richard.ross-at-allisontransmission.com } [mailto:richard.ross-at-allisontransmission.com] } Gesendet: Dienstag, 26. Jänner 2010 14:57 } An: Muß Wolfgang } Betreff: [Microscopy] Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety [Ice-Cream made with } LN2, concerns about] } } -------------------------------------------------------------------------- } The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of America } To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver } On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } Way back when, Chuck Fiori used to put on a demo with LN2 at the LeHigh SEM school. Chuck wanted to show that sometimes its more hazardous to trap LN2 against the body with protective gear than to give the liedenfrost effect room to create its protective blanket of gas. If the LN2 was provided, he would eventually take some into his mouth and blow 'smoke' rings. He told of a time when he accidentally swallowed some of the LN2 and the resulting stomach gas pressure caused him to black out, falling to the stage unconscious. Ultimately the excess pressure relieved itself as a belch and Chuck came to. Chuck certainly taught me things in ways that I remember! { } } ==============================Original Headers============================== } 1, 25 -- From richard.ross-at-allisontransmission.com Tue Jan 26 07:53:09 2010 } 1, 25 -- Received: from plmler2.mail.eds.com (plmler2.mail.eds.com [199.228.142.72]) } 1, 25 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0QDr9dN015534 } 1, 25 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 07:53:09 -0600 } 1, 25 -- Received: from plmlir1.mail.eds.com (plmlir1-2.mail.eds.com [199.228.142.131]) } 1, 25 -- by plmler2.mail.eds.com (8.14.2/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o0QDr9vK015878 } 1, 25 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 07:53:09 -0600 } 1, 25 -- Received: from plmlir1.mail.eds.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) } 1, 25 -- by plmlir1.mail.eds.com (8.14.2/8.12.10) with ESMTP id o0QDqvQb024949 } 1, 25 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 07:52:57 -0600 } 1, 25 -- Received: from USAT0EM0AD01.MAIL.ATI.INT ([143.242.253.24]) } 1, 25 -- by plmlir1.mail.eds.com (8.14.2/8.12.10) with ESMTP id o0QDqu6m024944 } 1, 25 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 07:52:57 -0600 } 1, 25 -- X-EDSINT-Source-Ip: 143.242.253.24 } 1, 25 -- To: microscopy-at-microscopy.com } 1, 25 -- Subject: [Microscopy] Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety } 1, 25 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 } 1, 25 -- X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.4 HF1151 March 27, 2007 } 1, 25 -- Message-ID: {OFF2CF22A0.AE9EFEF5-ON852576B7.004A74BF-852576B7.004C464E-at-mail.ati.int} } 1, 25 -- From: richard.ross-at-allisontransmission.com } 1, 25 -- Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 08:52:56 -0500 } 1, 25 -- X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on USAT0EM0AD01/ADMINHG/ATISERVER/ATI(Release 8.0.1|February } 1, 25 -- 07, 2008) at 01/26/2010 08:52:57 AM, } 1, 25 -- Serialize complete at 01/26/2010 08:52:57 AM } 1, 25 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" } ==============================End of - Headers==============================
==============================Original Headers============================== 27, 37 -- From W.Muss-at-salk.at Tue Jan 26 11:14:22 2010 27, 37 -- Received: from hermes.salk.at (hermes.salk.at [193.170.167.9]) 27, 37 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0QHEM7C005104 27, 37 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 11:14:22 -0600 27, 37 -- Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) 27, 37 -- by hermes.salk.at (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F3CCC3886; 27, 37 -- Tue, 26 Jan 2010 18:14:21 +0100 (CET) 27, 37 -- X-Virii-Scanned: Kaspersky Antivirus at salk.at 27, 37 -- Received: from hermes.salk.at ([127.0.0.1]) 27, 37 -- by localhost (n1ex218.lks.local [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) 27, 37 -- with ESMTP id R3yHnRSrOwIQ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 18:14:21 +0100 (CET) 27, 37 -- Received: from n1rz122.lksdom21.lks.local (n1rz122.lksdom21.lks.local [192.168.101.122]) 27, 37 -- by hermes.salk.at (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0874BC386C; 27, 37 -- Tue, 26 Jan 2010 18:14:21 +0100 (CET) 27, 37 -- Received: from N1RZ116.lksdom21.lks.local ([192.168.101.133]) by n1rz122.lksdom21.lks.local with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); 27, 37 -- Tue, 26 Jan 2010 18:14:21 +0100 27, 37 -- Content-class: urn:content-classes:message 27, 37 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 27, 37 -- Content-Type: text/plain; 27, 37 -- charset="utf-8" 27, 37 -- X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 27, 37 -- Subject: [Microscopy] Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety 27, 37 -- Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 18:14:20 +0100 27, 37 -- Message-ID: {06B4ED29F824524E98E8AA5BB6407062938C7A-at-N1RZ116.lksdom21.lks.local} 27, 37 -- In-Reply-To: {201001261356.o0QDudKo020790-at-ns.microscopy.com} 27, 37 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: 27, 37 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 27, 37 -- Thread-Topic: [Microscopy] Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety 27, 37 -- Thread-Index: Acqej7Yj+ufUOEDfTAivVux6pHBqQQAGlgzQ 27, 37 -- References: {201001261356.o0QDudKo020790-at-ns.microscopy.com} 27, 37 -- From: =?utf-8?B?TXXDnyBXb2xmZ2FuZw==?= {W.Muss-at-salk.at} 27, 37 -- To: {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 27, 37 -- Cc: {richard.ross-at-allisontransmission.com} 27, 37 -- X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Jan 2010 17:14:21.0088 (UTC) FILETIME=[000C4200:01CA9EAB] 27, 37 -- X-Scanned-By: SALK-Content-Filter 27, 37 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 27, 37 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0QHEM7C005104 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
LN2 safety has a long history in the microscopy list archives. As Wolfgang points out, learn to handle LN2 (or whatever) safely, and don't worry about it. The Leidenfrost effect and LN2 is well known and well discussed (here and elsewhere). And yes, I demonstrate this myself in our SEM labs. It's a non-issue. (Just make sure your hand is dry -- unlike when you stick it into molten lead to demonstrate the Leidenfrost effect.) Getting stuck in an elevator with a 160L LN2 transport dewar is much more of a potential problem.
As for LN2 and ice cream, I'm amused that people would get worried about safety issues. There are commercial ice cream parlors and restaurants making LN2 ice cream. Part of the molecular-gastronomy movement. http://www.urbandaddy.com/chi/1533/iCream_Chicago_CHI_Stone_Cold_Creamery_UrbanDaddy_Archives http://blogs.villagevoice.com/forkintheroad/archives/2009/10/lulu_mookys_bri.php http://www.starchefs.com/features/liquid-nitrogen/html/index.shtml etcetera LN2 ice cream is made tableside in some places. I don't think we really need to worry about it.
If you do want a hazard to worry about, think of ethane/butane/propane as LN2 cooled cryogens and how they *don't* exhibit the Leidenfrost effect, and how they do enrich themselves in oxygen by condensing it out of the air. And the potential of oxygen-enriched ethane ...
Phil -- Philip Oshel Microscopy Facility Supervisor Biology Department 024C Brooks Hall Central Michigan University Mt. Pleasant, MI 48859 (989) 774-3576
==============================Original Headers============================== 4, 25 -- From oshel1pe-at-cmich.edu Tue Jan 26 11:54:48 2010 4, 25 -- Received: from ob4.cmich.edu (ob4.cmich.edu [141.209.20.25]) 4, 25 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0QHsmvQ020882 4, 25 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 11:54:48 -0600 4, 25 -- Received: from egatea.central.cmich.local ([141.209.15.74]) 4, 25 -- by ob4.cmich.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id o0QHsjgm006863 4, 25 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:54:47 -0500 4, 25 -- Received: from [141.209.160.249] ([141.209.160.249]) by egatea.central.cmich.local with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); 4, 25 -- Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:54:45 -0500 4, 25 -- Mime-Version: 1.0 4, 25 -- Message-Id: {a06240812c784d9013191-at-[141.209.160.249]} 4, 25 -- In-Reply-To: {201001261718.o0QHI8Ah010647-at-ns.microscopy.com} 4, 25 -- References: {201001261718.o0QHI8Ah010647-at-ns.microscopy.com} 4, 25 -- Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:54:43 -0500 4, 25 -- To: Microscopy-at-microscopy.com 4, 25 -- From: Philip Oshel {oshel1pe-at-cmich.edu} 4, 25 -- Subject: [Microscopy] Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety 4, 25 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" 4, 25 -- X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Jan 2010 17:54:46.0584 (UTC) FILETIME=[A5C19380:01CA9EB0] 4, 25 -- X-Bayes-Prob: 0.0001 (Score -0.5, tokens from: -at--at-RPTN, default) 4, 25 -- X-Spam-Score: -4.40 () [Hold at 6.00] L_EXCH_MF,RDNS_NONE,Bayes(0.0001,-0.5) 4, 25 -- X-CanIt-Geo: ip=141.209.15.74; country=US; region=MI; city=Mount Pleasant; postalcode=48859; latitude=43.5647; longitude=-84.8473; metrocode=513; areacode=989; http://maps.google.com/maps?q=43.5647,-84.8473&z=6 4, 25 -- X-CanItPRO-Stream: default 4, 25 -- X-Canit-Stats-ID: 26662701 - 57ad1090566e - 20100126 4, 25 -- X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) on 141.209.20.25 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
We are interested in setting up an electron scheduling calendar for our EM lab. Currently we have four microscopes and some sample preparation tools users need to sign-up to use. FOM (fomnetworks.com) has been suggested but I am wondering about other programs that might be cheaper or free and still offer similar benefits: scheduling, tracking beam time etc.
Please offer any suggestions off line
Thanks Teresa
-- Teresa Sawyer Electron Microscope Facility Manager Oregon State University 541-737-5245 sawyert-at-science.oregonstate.edu Cordely Hall 1078 http://www.science.oregonstate.edu/bpp/EMfacility/index.htm
==============================Original Headers============================== 10, 27 -- From sawyert-at-science.oregonstate.edu Tue Jan 26 14:48:06 2010 10, 27 -- Received: from smtp6.oregonstate.edu (smtp6.oregonstate.edu [128.193.15.46]) 10, 27 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0QKm6d8008721 10, 27 -- for {Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com} ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 14:48:06 -0600 10, 27 -- Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) 10, 27 -- by smtp6.oregonstate.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9138EC888B2 10, 27 -- for {Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com} ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:48:05 -0800 (PST) 10, 27 -- X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at oregonstate.edu 10, 27 -- Received: from smtp6.oregonstate.edu ([127.0.0.1]) 10, 27 -- by localhost (smtp.oregonstate.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) 10, 27 -- with ESMTP id o8mmEtbcKtxb for {Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com} ; 10, 27 -- Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:48:05 -0800 (PST) 10, 27 -- Received: from frontend.science.oregonstate.edu (mail.science.oregonstate.edu [128.193.224.69]) 10, 27 -- by smtp6.oregonstate.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A994C88868 10, 27 -- for {Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com} ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:48:05 -0800 (PST) 10, 27 -- Received: from [128.193.227.221] (128-193-227-221.science.oregonstate.edu [128.193.227.221]) 10, 27 -- by frontend.science.oregonstate.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5692AB3C183 10, 27 -- for {Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com} ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:48:05 -0800 (PST) 10, 27 -- Message-ID: {4B5F5506.7090500-at-science.oregonstate.edu} 10, 27 -- Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:48:06 -0800 10, 27 -- From: Teresa Sawyer {sawyert-at-science.oregonstate.edu} 10, 27 -- User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) 10, 27 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 10, 27 -- To: Microscopy Listserv {Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com} 10, 27 -- Subject: electronic calendar 10, 27 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed 10, 27 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ==============================End of - Headers==============================
Someone asked me this sort of question earlier this month. We use the OCF software here, since it was written at our University.
The computing facility for AZ Research Labs (provided core facilities to campus) developed the OCF scheduler software. While it doesn't do everything, it does have the virtue of being freely available as open source software. Obviously there will be a financial investment in IT time/resources for anyone who wants to use OCF, but we like it here. For more information, see: http://demo.arl.arizona.edu/
Other labs I know of use either iCal or CALcium from Brownbear Software. I use iCal for low-traffic instruments, but I don't have any experience with CALcium. See: http://www.brownbearsw.com/
I've heard of other software scheduling/billing/management software, but I have no experience with it:
Some places use Google, or Yahoo calendars, or if they have a Microsoft Exchange server, calendars in Outlook.
Good luck, Doug
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Douglas W. Cromey, M.S. - Assistant Scientific Investigator Dept. of Cell Biology & Anatomy, University of Arizona 1501 N. Campbell Ave, Tucson, AZ 85724-5044 USA
http://swehsc.pharmacy.arizona.edu/exppath/ Home of: "Microscopy and Imaging Resources on the WWW"
-----Original Message----- X-from: sawyert-at-science.oregonstate.edu [mailto:sawyert-at-science.oregonstate.edu] Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 1:49 PM To: dcromey-at-email.arizona.edu
We are interested in setting up an electron scheduling calendar for our EM lab. Currently we have four microscopes and some sample preparation tools users need to sign-up to use. FOM (fomnetworks.com) has been suggested but I am wondering about other programs that might be cheaper or free and still offer similar benefits: scheduling, tracking beam time etc.
Please offer any suggestions off line
Thanks Teresa
-- Teresa Sawyer Electron Microscope Facility Manager Oregon State University 541-737-5245 sawyert-at-science.oregonstate.edu Cordely Hall 1078 http://www.science.oregonstate.edu/bpp/EMfacility/index.htm
==============================Original Headers============================== 10, 27 -- From sawyert-at-science.oregonstate.edu Tue Jan 26 14:48:06 2010 10, 27 -- Received: from smtp6.oregonstate.edu (smtp6.oregonstate.edu [128.193.15.46]) 10, 27 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0QKm6d8008721 10, 27 -- for {Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com} ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 14:48:06 -0600 10, 27 -- Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) 10, 27 -- by smtp6.oregonstate.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9138EC888B2 10, 27 -- for {Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com} ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:48:05 -0800 (PST) 10, 27 -- X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at oregonstate.edu 10, 27 -- Received: from smtp6.oregonstate.edu ([127.0.0.1]) 10, 27 -- by localhost (smtp.oregonstate.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) 10, 27 -- with ESMTP id o8mmEtbcKtxb for {Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com} ; 10, 27 -- Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:48:05 -0800 (PST) 10, 27 -- Received: from frontend.science.oregonstate.edu (mail.science.oregonstate.edu [128.193.224.69]) 10, 27 -- by smtp6.oregonstate.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A994C88868 10, 27 -- for {Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com} ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:48:05 -0800 (PST) 10, 27 -- Received: from [128.193.227.221] (128-193-227-221.science.oregonstate.edu [128.193.227.221]) 10, 27 -- by frontend.science.oregonstate.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5692AB3C183 10, 27 -- for {Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com} ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:48:05 -0800 (PST) 10, 27 -- Message-ID: {4B5F5506.7090500-at-science.oregonstate.edu} 10, 27 -- Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:48:06 -0800 10, 27 -- From: Teresa Sawyer {sawyert-at-science.oregonstate.edu} 10, 27 -- User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) 10, 27 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 10, 27 -- To: Microscopy Listserv {Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com} 10, 27 -- Subject: electronic calendar 10, 27 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed 10, 27 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ==============================End of - Headers==============================
==============================Original Headers============================== 30, 28 -- From dcromey-at-email.arizona.edu Tue Jan 26 15:10:30 2010 30, 28 -- Received: from smtpgate.email.arizona.edu (frodo.email.arizona.edu [128.196.133.168]) 30, 28 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0QLATnt024158 30, 28 -- for {Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com} ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 15:10:30 -0600 30, 28 -- Received: from mailgators_amavis (amavis9.email.arizona.edu [10.0.0.237]) 30, 28 -- by smtpgate.email.arizona.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 412B816DC9A6; 30, 28 -- Tue, 26 Jan 2010 14:10:29 -0700 (MST) 30, 28 -- Received: from RASTER (PharmacyVPN117-20.Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU [128.196.117.20]) 30, 28 -- by smtpgate.email.arizona.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C6F5202B61C; 30, 28 -- Tue, 26 Jan 2010 14:10:28 -0700 (MST) 30, 28 -- Reply-To: {cromey-at-arizona.edu} 30, 28 -- From: "Doug Cromey" {dcromey-at-email.arizona.edu} 30, 28 -- To: {sawyert-at-science.oregonstate.edu} 30, 28 -- Cc: "Microscopy listserv" {Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com} 30, 28 -- References: {201001262048.o0QKmv9l009519-at-ns.microscopy.com} 30, 28 -- In-Reply-To: {201001262048.o0QKmv9l009519-at-ns.microscopy.com} 30, 28 -- Subject: RE: [Microscopy] electronic calendar 30, 28 -- Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 14:10:22 -0700 30, 28 -- Organization: University of Arizona 30, 28 -- Message-ID: {004401ca9ecb$fc0cfde0$f426f9a0$-at-arizona.edu} 30, 28 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 30, 28 -- Content-Type: text/plain; 30, 28 -- charset="us-ascii" 30, 28 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 30, 28 -- X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 30, 28 -- Thread-Index: AcqeyP0Sj/CW/MZ8S/6649pfE7FzsQAAr1VA 30, 28 -- Content-Language: en-us 30, 28 -- X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at email.arizona.edu ==============================End of - Headers==============================
Phil, Thank you. I've enjoyed playing with lN2 from time to time. I also got 2nd degree burns from it once when I was not playing with it. The problem was that I acted before I thought. I realized my mistake milliseconds after my inappropriate action and milliseconds before acquiring my burns.
The trick, of course, is to know what you are about and to THINK (in time).
I also like to occasionally play with He or Ar when it's available. The voice changes are fun, but I've read some real kill-joy things about those activities, also. Again, if you THINK and realize that you're displacing O2, then you breathe a number of times between inhaling either gas. We can still demonstrate scientific principles, we can still have fun and we can still inspire kids to opt for a career where you get to play with cool toys and other playthings.
The GPS display stuck on a windshield is probably more hazardous than the above activities.
Ken Converse owner
QUALITY IMAGES Servicing Scanning Electron Microscopes Since 1981 474 So. Bridgton Rd. Bridgton, ME 04009 207-647-4348 Fax 207-647-2688 kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz qualityimages.biz
-----Original Message----- X-from: oshel1pe-at-cmich.edu [mailto:oshel1pe-at-cmich.edu] Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 12:56 PM To: kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz
LN2 safety has a long history in the microscopy list archives. As Wolfgang points out, learn to handle LN2 (or whatever) safely, and don't worry about it. The Leidenfrost effect and LN2 is well known and well discussed (here and elsewhere). And yes, I demonstrate this myself in our SEM labs. It's a non-issue. (Just make sure your hand is dry -- unlike when you stick it into molten lead to demonstrate the Leidenfrost effect.) Getting stuck in an elevator with a 160L LN2 transport dewar is much more of a potential problem.
As for LN2 and ice cream, I'm amused that people would get worried about safety issues. There are commercial ice cream parlors and restaurants making LN2 ice cream. Part of the molecular-gastronomy movement. http://www.urbandaddy.com/chi/1533/iCream_Chicago_CHI_Stone_Cold_Creamery_Ur banDaddy_Archives http://blogs.villagevoice.com/forkintheroad/archives/2009/10/lulu_mookys_bri .php http://www.starchefs.com/features/liquid-nitrogen/html/index.shtml etcetera LN2 ice cream is made tableside in some places. I don't think we really need to worry about it.
If you do want a hazard to worry about, think of ethane/butane/propane as LN2 cooled cryogens and how they *don't* exhibit the Leidenfrost effect, and how they do enrich themselves in oxygen by condensing it out of the air. And the potential of oxygen-enriched ethane ...
Phil -- Philip Oshel Microscopy Facility Supervisor Biology Department 024C Brooks Hall Central Michigan University Mt. Pleasant, MI 48859 (989) 774-3576
==============================Original Headers============================== 4, 25 -- From oshel1pe-at-cmich.edu Tue Jan 26 11:54:48 2010 4, 25 -- Received: from ob4.cmich.edu (ob4.cmich.edu [141.209.20.25]) 4, 25 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0QHsmvQ020882 4, 25 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 11:54:48 -0600 4, 25 -- Received: from egatea.central.cmich.local ([141.209.15.74]) 4, 25 -- by ob4.cmich.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id o0QHsjgm006863 4, 25 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:54:47 -0500 4, 25 -- Received: from [141.209.160.249] ([141.209.160.249]) by egatea.central.cmich.local with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); 4, 25 -- Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:54:45 -0500 4, 25 -- Mime-Version: 1.0 4, 25 -- Message-Id: {a06240812c784d9013191-at-[141.209.160.249]} 4, 25 -- In-Reply-To: {201001261718.o0QHI8Ah010647-at-ns.microscopy.com} 4, 25 -- References: {201001261718.o0QHI8Ah010647-at-ns.microscopy.com} 4, 25 -- Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:54:43 -0500 4, 25 -- To: Microscopy-at-microscopy.com 4, 25 -- From: Philip Oshel {oshel1pe-at-cmich.edu} 4, 25 -- Subject: [Microscopy] Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety 4, 25 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" 4, 25 -- X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Jan 2010 17:54:46.0584 (UTC) FILETIME=[A5C19380:01CA9EB0] 4, 25 -- X-Bayes-Prob: 0.0001 (Score -0.5, tokens from: -at--at-RPTN, default) 4, 25 -- X-Spam-Score: -4.40 () [Hold at 6.00] L_EXCH_MF,RDNS_NONE,Bayes(0.0001,-0.5) 4, 25 -- X-CanIt-Geo: ip=141.209.15.74; country=US; region=MI; city=Mount Pleasant; postalcode=48859; latitude=43.5647; longitude=-84.8473; metrocode=513; areacode=989; http://maps.google.com/maps?q=43.5647,-84.8473&z=6 4, 25 -- X-CanItPRO-Stream: default 4, 25 -- X-Canit-Stats-ID: 26662701 - 57ad1090566e - 20100126 4, 25 -- X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) on 141.209.20.25 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
==============================Original Headers============================== 19, 28 -- From kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz Tue Jan 26 15:47:45 2010 19, 28 -- Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.121]) 19, 28 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0QLljV3007120 19, 28 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 15:47:45 -0600 19, 28 -- X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=QAJuPX78U3EA:10 a=Zx37jsudAAAA:8 a=-TqSftU0AAAA:8 a=8PNzga8HAAAA:8 a=9ryZGWKFAAAA:8 a=1XWaLZrsAAAA:8 a=WXVMpmF2uAxwoo9XorUA:9 a=QTJ6C2kqHwoQhc9rkkgA:7 a=4qwRij8DJ5nAtZ6JUAY8jCAfRVsA:4 a=mqF0sEuJmUcA:10 a=5JUlSvKOtR0A:10 a=fM1NKZWFy18A:10 a=61zoQwkwrZQA:10 a=SEuX1L-y0FMA:10 a=bv0I8-aP38kA:10 a=G91thX30KR8A:10 a=FuOVNQwacscMEAWo:21 a=SZ8OonMvYCJeyKg-:21 19, 28 -- X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 19, 28 -- X-Originating-IP: 72.227.111.133 19, 28 -- Received: from [72.227.111.133] ([72.227.111.133:3166] helo=Ken) 19, 28 -- by cdptpa-oedge01.mail.rr.com (envelope-from {kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz} ) 19, 28 -- (ecelerity 2.2.2.39 r()) with ESMTP 19, 28 -- id DA/36-02205-0036F5B4; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 21:47:44 +0000 19, 28 -- From: "Ken Converse" {kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz} 19, 28 -- To: {oshel1pe-at-cmich.edu} , "MSA Listserver" {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 19, 28 -- Subject: RE: [Microscopy] Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety 19, 28 -- Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 16:47:34 -0500 19, 28 -- Message-ID: {001DB295026246E08A9BF261D0BFE79D-at-Ken} 19, 28 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 19, 28 -- Content-Type: text/plain; 19, 28 -- charset="us-ascii" 19, 28 -- X-Priority: 3 (Normal) 19, 28 -- X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 19, 28 -- X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6838 19, 28 -- Thread-Index: AcqesOb5LVEvbA6sR/Kx/1SHs79CNgAHpp4g 19, 28 -- In-Reply-To: {201001261756.o0QHuPHb024590-at-ns.microscopy.com} 19, 28 -- Importance: Normal 19, 28 -- X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 19, 28 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 19, 28 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0QLljV3007120 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
As a semi-professional ice cream maker, I'd like to second Wolfgang Muss's reference to the old-fashioned but utterly reliable and safe method of using a hand-cranked ice cream freezer rather than any other option. There are reasons why this works well, which, if ignored, explain why it doesn't work sometimes! Making ice cream is an exercise in heat transfer and crystal growth. The heat transfer surface is the metal wall of the tub which is rotated by the crank. Counter-rotating inside the tube is a pair of wooden paddles, keeping that surface clean and free of ice, constantly removing the freezing cream. The idea is to get a eutectic mixture of salt and ice on the outside, i.e., minimum possible temperature in this system, dump in the cream and start cranking. Don't ever stop for even one second. i.e., keep that surface clean, and in six-eight minutes your job will be done. The idea is to maximize the number of crystals and minimize their size. It is NOT a tedious process, hardly enough to get winded.
My most sought-after publication in my entire life was my paper on The Thermodynamics of Homemade Ice Cream, published in the Journal Of Chemical Education. I still have the thermocouple-fitted ice cream freezer in which we made many gallons of ice cream, doing the experimental work for this paper. Somebody had to do it! And sticking your finger in the ice cream will not harm you at all!
Donald L. Gibbon
-----Original Message----- X-from: W.Muss-at-salk.at [mailto:W.Muss-at-salk.at] Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 12:23 PM To: Gibbon, Donald L.
Good morning, good afternoon, good evening - hopefully any somewhere will apply, hello, dear colleagues,
Just to add my 2 €-cents (apologize if the message became too long):
Yes, we can discuss about children STICK THEIR FINGERS IN THE LIQUID NITROGEN and other stuff.... in general, since in EM we sometimes have to work with 'cruel' things and substances (and others a little bit more often). Cryogenics also CAN be hazardous (as } hot { water is/can be), depending on how we are } working with { it. If we couldn't do that safe(ly) it necessarily / perhaps would have been forbidden for a long time.
There are a lot of sources on the web one can find concerning use and misuse of e. g. liquid nitrogen: for example:
http://www.altair.org/hazard.html (DONT DIE ! Laboratory Hazards: Safety, Prevention, First Aid, C 2001-2010)
http://www.reachoutmichigan.org/funexperiments/agesubject/lessons/nitrogen.html ( "Fun experiments" website last updated 2003)
http://smb.slac.stanford.edu/users_guide/manual/Experiment_policies.html#SECTION00027000000000000000 (describes hazards and proper handling procedures for work with liquid nitrogen, 2010)
http://stores.biochem.uiowa.edu/Pages/ln2msds.htm ("old" but IMO "good" example for a US-Univ's Safety Data Sheet)
Also, some Labs are questioning in advance for safety issues on the things someone will bring into the Lab: e.g. http://www.sbc.anl.gov/pdfs/hazard_assessment_form.pdf (take a look for 'cryogens', Argonne Natl. Lab, SBC Hazard Assessment Form), perhaps just to be on the safe side for their own staff people and Lab's interior.
AND finally, YES, LN2-ingestion - to take a mouthfull of LN2 and blast it off - only for the EXPERIENCED CAN BE a junky-funky trick, BUT - on the other side - for the unexperienced (unfortunately also for the 'careless' experienced I have to admit!) - it could be not only dangerous but LIFE threatening: cf. http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/reprint/105/1/121 ( Benjamin Z. Koplewitz, et al.... Gastric Perforation Attributable to Liquid Nitrogen Ingestion, in: Pediatrics 2000;105;121-123, open Access)
A similar situation has been reported on http://www.darwinawards.com/personal/personal2000-25.html, which eventually was } awarded { with the DARWIN AWARD in 2000 (==} cit: "The Darwin Awards salute the improvement of the human genome by honoring those who accidentally remove themselves from it..." end of cit.)
I personally have no doubt that it IS possible (and I have done that for demonstration of "Leidenfrost phenomenon" a lot of times way back...) to place one or two fingers, eventually(and forsure) the whole hand into liquid nitrogen for 1-2 seconds, PROVIDED some necessary PREREQUISITES which - IN ADVANCE - have to be theoretically explained and are to be met to/for those } trying { such an "adventure" and IMO only should be done in a SUPERVISED situation.
Despite (or better: BECAUSE) respecting all those "little" {problem-makers} in our daily work (if this is not done by other staff members, I have to to do such work literally by myself) I am not in a blue funk of perhaps desastrous results of using/handling all those substances like OsO4 (hazard, toxic), p-phenylenediamine (pesticide, toxic), uranyl-acetate from stock powder (radioactive), cryogens (like LN2, precooled isobutane, also Freon gas [some residual inventory] if the pressurized can will be used inverted) and other substances/chemicals (mostly used in very small quantities), not to forget all those "may be hazardous resins" out in the dark...
WHY I am NOT AFRAID/do not fear those: since I have learned - before handling and using those - WHAT the respective properties of materials/substances/fluids are, HOW they have ( practically ) to be used safely, WHAT the consequences eventually will be (personal and for others) if handled unsafe, and HOW to dispose of (remnants, by-products of reactions, etc.) properly.
(as an example for awareness: read: http://www.hull.ac.uk/chemstores/coshhadv.html (COSHH- Control of Substances Hazardous to Health, Univ.Hull, UK: 'part of the U.K.'s CRIMINAL LAW' !)
Anybody who has {studied} properties of chemicals etc., their handling and use properly and correctly will know how to proceed with the use of material and substances we use in an EM-lab. If this has not be done, no one should do } things { he never got explained and does not know about consequences in case of misuse.
There IMO is no need to disallow or eventually prohibit (necessary) actions which to the unexperienced (perhaps) will be harmful, but to the experienced does not apply seriously. So, last but not least: it is the responsibilty of the "experienced" to teach the unexperienced... so you as the {experienced} decide what can be done/shown and what CANNOT be done /shown.
Concerning: Ice-Cream-experiments with LN2, those perhaps are an "interesting" demonstration for a new practical application but easily can/could be safely substituted by {old fashioned} ice-cream-making (e.g lowering the temperature of the fluids by using eg. the pot-freezer method: the temperature of the ingredients is reduced by placing them inside a tub filled with ice and salt) Cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_cream .
At the end: just only pointing to the long MSA thread on } N2 gas-LN2 { starting May 2nd 2009 Conc: [Microscopy] Nitrogen leak (JEOL 6701F SEM)
Regards, Wolfgang MUSS Head EM-Lab, Pathology SALK-LKH (Gen. Hosp.) SALZBURG Austria
} -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- } Von: richard.ross-at-allisontransmission.com } [mailto:richard.ross-at-allisontransmission.com] } Gesendet: Dienstag, 26. Jänner 2010 14:57 } An: Muß Wolfgang } Betreff: [Microscopy] Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety [Ice-Cream made with } LN2, concerns about] } } -------------------------------------------------------------------------- } The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of America } To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver } On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } Way back when, Chuck Fiori used to put on a demo with LN2 at the LeHigh SEM school. Chuck wanted to show that sometimes its more hazardous to trap LN2 against the body with protective gear than to give the liedenfrost effect room to create its protective blanket of gas. If the LN2 was provided, he would eventually take some into his mouth and blow 'smoke' rings. He told of a time when he accidentally swallowed some of the LN2 and the resulting stomach gas pressure caused him to black out, falling to the stage unconscious. Ultimately the excess pressure relieved itself as a belch and Chuck came to. Chuck certainly taught me things in ways that I remember! { } } ==============================Original Headers============================== } 1, 25 -- From richard.ross-at-allisontransmission.com Tue Jan 26 07:53:09 2010 } 1, 25 -- Received: from plmler2.mail.eds.com (plmler2.mail.eds.com [199.228.142.72]) } 1, 25 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0QDr9dN015534 } 1, 25 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 07:53:09 -0600 } 1, 25 -- Received: from plmlir1.mail.eds.com (plmlir1-2.mail.eds.com [199.228.142.131]) } 1, 25 -- by plmler2.mail.eds.com (8.14.2/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o0QDr9vK015878 } 1, 25 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 07:53:09 -0600 } 1, 25 -- Received: from plmlir1.mail.eds.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) } 1, 25 -- by plmlir1.mail.eds.com (8.14.2/8.12.10) with ESMTP id o0QDqvQb024949 } 1, 25 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 07:52:57 -0600 } 1, 25 -- Received: from USAT0EM0AD01.MAIL.ATI.INT ([143.242.253.24]) } 1, 25 -- by plmlir1.mail.eds.com (8.14.2/8.12.10) with ESMTP id o0QDqu6m024944 } 1, 25 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 07:52:57 -0600 } 1, 25 -- X-EDSINT-Source-Ip: 143.242.253.24 } 1, 25 -- To: microscopy-at-microscopy.com } 1, 25 -- Subject: [Microscopy] Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety } 1, 25 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 } 1, 25 -- X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.4 HF1151 March 27, 2007 } 1, 25 -- Message-ID: {OFF2CF22A0.AE9EFEF5-ON852576B7.004A74BF-852576B7.004C464E-at-mail.ati.int} } 1, 25 -- From: richard.ross-at-allisontransmission.com } 1, 25 -- Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 08:52:56 -0500 } 1, 25 -- X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on USAT0EM0AD01/ADMINHG/ATISERVER/ATI(Release 8.0.1|February } 1, 25 -- 07, 2008) at 01/26/2010 08:52:57 AM, } 1, 25 -- Serialize complete at 01/26/2010 08:52:57 AM } 1, 25 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" } ==============================End of - Headers==============================
==============================Original Headers============================== 27, 37 -- From W.Muss-at-salk.at Tue Jan 26 11:14:22 2010 27, 37 -- Received: from hermes.salk.at (hermes.salk.at [193.170.167.9]) 27, 37 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0QHEM7C005104 27, 37 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 11:14:22 -0600 27, 37 -- Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) 27, 37 -- by hermes.salk.at (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F3CCC3886; 27, 37 -- Tue, 26 Jan 2010 18:14:21 +0100 (CET) 27, 37 -- X-Virii-Scanned: Kaspersky Antivirus at salk.at 27, 37 -- Received: from hermes.salk.at ([127.0.0.1]) 27, 37 -- by localhost (n1ex218.lks.local [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) 27, 37 -- with ESMTP id R3yHnRSrOwIQ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 18:14:21 +0100 (CET) 27, 37 -- Received: from n1rz122.lksdom21.lks.local (n1rz122.lksdom21.lks.local [192.168.101.122]) 27, 37 -- by hermes.salk.at (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0874BC386C; 27, 37 -- Tue, 26 Jan 2010 18:14:21 +0100 (CET) 27, 37 -- Received: from N1RZ116.lksdom21.lks.local ([192.168.101.133]) by n1rz122.lksdom21.lks.local with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); 27, 37 -- Tue, 26 Jan 2010 18:14:21 +0100 27, 37 -- Content-class: urn:content-classes:message 27, 37 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 27, 37 -- Content-Type: text/plain; 27, 37 -- charset="utf-8" 27, 37 -- X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 27, 37 -- Subject: [Microscopy] Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety 27, 37 -- Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 18:14:20 +0100 27, 37 -- Message-ID: {06B4ED29F824524E98E8AA5BB6407062938C7A-at-N1RZ116.lksdom21.lks.local} 27, 37 -- In-Reply-To: {201001261356.o0QDudKo020790-at-ns.microscopy.com} 27, 37 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: 27, 37 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 27, 37 -- Thread-Topic: [Microscopy] Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety 27, 37 -- Thread-Index: Acqej7Yj+ufUOEDfTAivVux6pHBqQQAGlgzQ 27, 37 -- References: {201001261356.o0QDudKo020790-at-ns.microscopy.com} 27, 37 -- From: =?utf-8?B?TXXDnyBXb2xmZ2FuZw==?= {W.Muss-at-salk.at} 27, 37 -- To: {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 27, 37 -- Cc: {richard.ross-at-allisontransmission.com} 27, 37 -- X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Jan 2010 17:14:21.0088 (UTC) FILETIME=[000C4200:01CA9EAB] 27, 37 -- X-Scanned-By: SALK-Content-Filter 27, 37 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 27, 37 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0QHEM7C005104 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
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==============================Original Headers============================== 41, 25 -- From donald.gibbon-at-matcoinc.com Tue Jan 26 16:31:13 2010 41, 25 -- Received: from smtp1.valmont.com (smtp1.valmont.com [72.165.239.151]) 41, 25 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0QMVCO4023527 41, 25 -- for {Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com} ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 16:31:12 -0600 41, 25 -- X-TM-IMSS-Message-ID: {5ea52afe0001887e-at-smtp1.valmont.com} 41, 25 -- Received: from valmailbh1.na.valmont.com ([172.16.0.51]) by smtp1.valmont.com ([192.168.123.151]) with ESMTP (TREND IMSS SMTP Service 7.0) id 5ea52afe0001887e ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 16:31:08 -0600 41, 25 -- Received: from valmail.na.valmont.com ([172.16.1.35]) by valmailbh1.na.valmont.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); 41, 25 -- Tue, 26 Jan 2010 16:31:10 -0600 41, 25 -- X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 41, 25 -- Content-class: urn:content-classes:message 41, 25 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 41, 25 -- Content-Type: text/plain; 41, 25 -- charset="utf-8" 41, 25 -- Subject: FW: [Microscopy] Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety 41, 25 -- Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 16:30:53 -0600 41, 25 -- Message-ID: {AE9049B5C6BD064BA3F0B94A1F985BA701C0271C-at-valmail.na.valmont.com} 41, 25 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: 41, 25 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 41, 25 -- Thread-Topic: [Microscopy] Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety 41, 25 -- Thread-Index: AcqerEInLpxwPY7hR82L8CQkUjJcMAAIjmRAAAIs39A= 41, 25 -- From: "Gibbon, Donald L." {donald.gibbon-at-matcoinc.com} 41, 25 -- To: {Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com} 41, 25 -- X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Jan 2010 22:31:10.0693 (UTC) FILETIME=[42A7C950:01CA9ED7] 41, 25 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 41, 25 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0QMVCO4023527 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
Don, You're right! It's a dirty job, but somebody's got to do it. My wife and I got an electric ice cream maker as a wedding gift that we haven't used nearly enough. My favorite recipe not only includes the heavy cream, but a half dozen eggs. To die for...
Of course the kill-joys will tell us that the heavy cream, the cholesterol in the eggs and all the sugar will kill us, not to mention the environmental effects of all the cattle and chickens, plus the inhumane conditions they are kept in.
I'll have another serving of that custard ice cream recipe, thank you.
Ken Converse owner
QUALITY IMAGES Servicing Scanning Electron Microscopes Since 1981 474 So. Bridgton Rd. Bridgton, ME 04009 207-647-4348 Fax 207-647-2688 kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz qualityimages.biz
-----Original Message----- X-from: donald.gibbon-at-matcoinc.com [mailto:donald.gibbon-at-matcoinc.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 5:34 PM To: kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz
As a semi-professional ice cream maker, I'd like to second Wolfgang Muss's reference to the old-fashioned but utterly reliable and safe method of using a hand-cranked ice cream freezer rather than any other option. There are reasons why this works well, which, if ignored, explain why it doesn't work sometimes! Making ice cream is an exercise in heat transfer and crystal growth. The heat transfer surface is the metal wall of the tub which is rotated by the crank. Counter-rotating inside the tube is a pair of wooden paddles, keeping that surface clean and free of ice, constantly removing the freezing cream. The idea is to get a eutectic mixture of salt and ice on the outside, i.e., minimum possible temperature in this system, dump in the cream and start cranking. Don't ever stop for even one second. i.e., keep that surface clean, and in six-eight minutes your job will be done. The idea is to maximize the number of crystals and minimize their size. It is NOT a tedious process, ! hardly enough to get winded.
My most sought-after publication in my entire life was my paper on The Thermodynamics of Homemade Ice Cream, published in the Journal Of Chemical Education. I still have the thermocouple-fitted ice cream freezer in which we made many gallons of ice cream, doing the experimental work for this paper. Somebody had to do it! And sticking your finger in the ice cream will not harm you at all!
Donald L. Gibbon
-----Original Message----- X-from: W.Muss-at-salk.at [mailto:W.Muss-at-salk.at] Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 12:23 PM To: Gibbon, Donald L.
Good morning, good afternoon, good evening - hopefully any somewhere will apply, hello, dear colleagues,
Just to add my 2 €-cents (apologize if the message became too long):
Yes, we can discuss about children STICK THEIR FINGERS IN THE LIQUID NITROGEN and other stuff.... in general, since in EM we sometimes have to work with 'cruel' things and substances (and others a little bit more often). Cryogenics also CAN be hazardous (as } hot { water is/can be), depending on how we are } working with { it. If we couldn't do that safe(ly) it necessarily / perhaps would have been forbidden for a long time.
There are a lot of sources on the web one can find concerning use and misuse of e. g. liquid nitrogen: for example:
http://www.altair.org/hazard.html (DONT DIE ! Laboratory Hazards: Safety, Prevention, First Aid, C 2001-2010)
http://www.reachoutmichigan.org/funexperiments/agesubject/lessons/nitrogen.html ( "Fun experiments" website last updated 2003)
http://smb.slac.stanford.edu/users_guide/manual/Experiment_policies.html#SECTION00027000000000000000 (describes hazards and proper handling procedures for work with liquid nitrogen, 2010)
http://stores.biochem.uiowa.edu/Pages/ln2msds.htm ("old" but IMO "good" example for a US-Univ's Safety Data Sheet)
Also, some Labs are questioning in advance for safety issues on the things someone will bring into the Lab: e.g. http://www.sbc.anl.gov/pdfs/hazard_assessment_form.pdf (take a look for 'cryogens', Argonne Natl. Lab, SBC Hazard Assessment Form), perhaps just to be on the safe side for their own staff people and Lab's interior.
AND finally, YES, LN2-ingestion - to take a mouthfull of LN2 and blast it off - only for the EXPERIENCED CAN BE a junky-funky trick, BUT - on the other side - for the unexperienced (unfortunately also for the 'careless' experienced I have to admit!) - it could be not only dangerous but LIFE threatening: cf. http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/reprint/105/1/121 ( Benjamin Z. Koplewitz, et al.... Gastric Perforation Attributable to Liquid Nitrogen Ingestion, in: Pediatrics 2000;105;121-123, open Access)
A similar situation has been reported on http://www.darwinawards.com/personal/personal2000-25.html, which eventually was } awarded { with the DARWIN AWARD in 2000 (==} cit: "The Darwin Awards salute the improvement of the human genome by honoring those who accidentally remove themselves from it..." end of cit.)
I personally have no doubt that it IS possible (and I have done that for demonstration of "Leidenfrost phenomenon" a lot of times way back...) to place one or two fingers, eventually(and forsure) the whole hand into liquid nitrogen for 1-2 seconds, PROVIDED some necessary PREREQUISITES which - IN ADVANCE - have to be theoretically explained and are to be met to/for those } trying { such an "adventure" and IMO only should be done in a SUPERVISED situation.
Despite (or better: BECAUSE) respecting all those "little" {problem-makers} in our daily work (if this is not done by other staff members, I have to to do such work literally by myself) I am not in a blue funk of perhaps desastrous results of using/handling all those substances like OsO4 (hazard, toxic), p-phenylenediamine (pesticide, toxic), uranyl-acetate from stock powder (radioactive), cryogens (like LN2, precooled isobutane, also Freon gas [some residual inventory] if the pressurized can will be used inverted) and other substances/chemicals (mostly used in very small quantities), not to forget all those "may be hazardous resins" out in the dark...
WHY I am NOT AFRAID/do not fear those: since I have learned - before handling and using those - WHAT the respective properties of materials/substances/fluids are, HOW they have ( practically ) to be used safely, WHAT the consequences eventually will be (personal and for others) if handled unsafe, and HOW to dispose of (remnants, by-products of reactions, etc.) properly.
(as an example for awareness: read: http://www.hull.ac.uk/chemstores/coshhadv.html (COSHH- Control of Substances Hazardous to Health, Univ.Hull, UK: 'part of the U.K.'s CRIMINAL LAW' !)
Anybody who has {studied} properties of chemicals etc., their handling and use properly and correctly will know how to proceed with the use of material and substances we use in an EM-lab. If this has not be done, no one should do } things { he never got explained and does not know about consequences in case of misuse.
There IMO is no need to disallow or eventually prohibit (necessary) actions which to the unexperienced (perhaps) will be harmful, but to the experienced does not apply seriously. So, last but not least: it is the responsibilty of the "experienced" to teach the unexperienced... so you as the {experienced} decide what can be done/shown and what CANNOT be done /shown.
Concerning: Ice-Cream-experiments with LN2, those perhaps are an "interesting" demonstration for a new practical application but easily can/could be safely substituted by {old fashioned} ice-cream-making (e.g lowering the temperature of the fluids by using eg. the pot-freezer method: the temperature of the ingredients is reduced by placing them inside a tub filled with ice and salt) Cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_cream .
At the end: just only pointing to the long MSA thread on } N2 gas-LN2 { starting May 2nd 2009 Conc: [Microscopy] Nitrogen leak (JEOL 6701F SEM)
Regards, Wolfgang MUSS Head EM-Lab, Pathology SALK-LKH (Gen. Hosp.) SALZBURG Austria
} -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- } Von: richard.ross-at-allisontransmission.com } [mailto:richard.ross-at-allisontransmission.com] } Gesendet: Dienstag, 26. Jänner 2010 14:57 } An: Muß Wolfgang } Betreff: [Microscopy] Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety [Ice-Cream made with } LN2, concerns about] } } -------------------------------------------------------------------------- } The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of America } To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver } On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } Way back when, Chuck Fiori used to put on a demo with LN2 at the LeHigh SEM school. Chuck wanted to show that sometimes its more hazardous to trap LN2 against the body with protective gear than to give the liedenfrost effect room to create its protective blanket of gas. If the LN2 was provided, he would eventually take some into his mouth and blow 'smoke' rings. He told of a time when he accidentally swallowed some of the LN2 and the resulting stomach gas pressure caused him to black out, falling to the stage unconscious. Ultimately the excess pressure relieved itself as a belch and Chuck came to. Chuck certainly taught me things in ways that I remember! { } } ==============================Original Headers============================== } 1, 25 -- From richard.ross-at-allisontransmission.com Tue Jan 26 07:53:09 2010 } 1, 25 -- Received: from plmler2.mail.eds.com (plmler2.mail.eds.com [199.228.142.72]) } 1, 25 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0QDr9dN015534 } 1, 25 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 07:53:09 -0600 } 1, 25 -- Received: from plmlir1.mail.eds.com (plmlir1-2.mail.eds.com [199.228.142.131]) } 1, 25 -- by plmler2.mail.eds.com (8.14.2/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o0QDr9vK015878 } 1, 25 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 07:53:09 -0600 } 1, 25 -- Received: from plmlir1.mail.eds.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) } 1, 25 -- by plmlir1.mail.eds.com (8.14.2/8.12.10) with ESMTP id o0QDqvQb024949 } 1, 25 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 07:52:57 -0600 } 1, 25 -- Received: from USAT0EM0AD01.MAIL.ATI.INT ([143.242.253.24]) } 1, 25 -- by plmlir1.mail.eds.com (8.14.2/8.12.10) with ESMTP id o0QDqu6m024944 } 1, 25 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 07:52:57 -0600 } 1, 25 -- X-EDSINT-Source-Ip: 143.242.253.24 } 1, 25 -- To: microscopy-at-microscopy.com } 1, 25 -- Subject: [Microscopy] Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety } 1, 25 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 } 1, 25 -- X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.4 HF1151 March 27, 2007 } 1, 25 -- Message-ID: {OFF2CF22A0.AE9EFEF5-ON852576B7.004A74BF-852576B7.004C464E-at-mail.ati.int} } 1, 25 -- From: richard.ross-at-allisontransmission.com } 1, 25 -- Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 08:52:56 -0500 } 1, 25 -- X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on USAT0EM0AD01/ADMINHG/ATISERVER/ATI(Release 8.0.1|February } 1, 25 -- 07, 2008) at 01/26/2010 08:52:57 AM, } 1, 25 -- Serialize complete at 01/26/2010 08:52:57 AM } 1, 25 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" } ==============================End of - Headers==============================
==============================Original Headers============================== 27, 37 -- From W.Muss-at-salk.at Tue Jan 26 11:14:22 2010 27, 37 -- Received: from hermes.salk.at (hermes.salk.at [193.170.167.9]) 27, 37 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0QHEM7C005104 27, 37 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 11:14:22 -0600 27, 37 -- Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) 27, 37 -- by hermes.salk.at (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F3CCC3886; 27, 37 -- Tue, 26 Jan 2010 18:14:21 +0100 (CET) 27, 37 -- X-Virii-Scanned: Kaspersky Antivirus at salk.at 27, 37 -- Received: from hermes.salk.at ([127.0.0.1]) 27, 37 -- by localhost (n1ex218.lks.local [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) 27, 37 -- with ESMTP id R3yHnRSrOwIQ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 18:14:21 +0100 (CET) 27, 37 -- Received: from n1rz122.lksdom21.lks.local (n1rz122.lksdom21.lks.local [192.168.101.122]) 27, 37 -- by hermes.salk.at (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0874BC386C; 27, 37 -- Tue, 26 Jan 2010 18:14:21 +0100 (CET) 27, 37 -- Received: from N1RZ116.lksdom21.lks.local ([192.168.101.133]) by n1rz122.lksdom21.lks.local with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); 27, 37 -- Tue, 26 Jan 2010 18:14:21 +0100 27, 37 -- Content-class: urn:content-classes:message 27, 37 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 27, 37 -- Content-Type: text/plain; 27, 37 -- charset="utf-8" 27, 37 -- X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 27, 37 -- Subject: [Microscopy] Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety 27, 37 -- Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 18:14:20 +0100 27, 37 -- Message-ID: {06B4ED29F824524E98E8AA5BB6407062938C7A-at-N1RZ116.lksdom21.lks.local} 27, 37 -- In-Reply-To: {201001261356.o0QDudKo020790-at-ns.microscopy.com} 27, 37 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: 27, 37 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 27, 37 -- Thread-Topic: [Microscopy] Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety 27, 37 -- Thread-Index: Acqej7Yj+ufUOEDfTAivVux6pHBqQQAGlgzQ 27, 37 -- References: {201001261356.o0QDudKo020790-at-ns.microscopy.com} 27, 37 -- From: =?utf-8?B?TXXDnyBXb2xmZ2FuZw==?= {W.Muss-at-salk.at} 27, 37 -- To: {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 27, 37 -- Cc: {richard.ross-at-allisontransmission.com} 27, 37 -- X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Jan 2010 17:14:21.0088 (UTC) FILETIME=[000C4200:01CA9EAB] 27, 37 -- X-Scanned-By: SALK-Content-Filter 27, 37 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 27, 37 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0QHEM7C005104 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
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==============================Original Headers============================== 41, 25 -- From donald.gibbon-at-matcoinc.com Tue Jan 26 16:31:13 2010 41, 25 -- Received: from smtp1.valmont.com (smtp1.valmont.com [72.165.239.151]) 41, 25 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0QMVCO4023527 41, 25 -- for {Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com} ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 16:31:12 -0600 41, 25 -- X-TM-IMSS-Message-ID: {5ea52afe0001887e-at-smtp1.valmont.com} 41, 25 -- Received: from valmailbh1.na.valmont.com ([172.16.0.51]) by smtp1.valmont.com ([192.168.123.151]) with ESMTP (TREND IMSS SMTP Service 7.0) id 5ea52afe0001887e ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 16:31:08 -0600 41, 25 -- Received: from valmail.na.valmont.com ([172.16.1.35]) by valmailbh1.na.valmont.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); 41, 25 -- Tue, 26 Jan 2010 16:31:10 -0600 41, 25 -- X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 41, 25 -- Content-class: urn:content-classes:message 41, 25 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 41, 25 -- Content-Type: text/plain; 41, 25 -- charset="utf-8" 41, 25 -- Subject: FW: [Microscopy] Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety 41, 25 -- Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 16:30:53 -0600 41, 25 -- Message-ID: {AE9049B5C6BD064BA3F0B94A1F985BA701C0271C-at-valmail.na.valmont.com} 41, 25 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: 41, 25 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 41, 25 -- Thread-Topic: [Microscopy] Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety 41, 25 -- Thread-Index: AcqerEInLpxwPY7hR82L8CQkUjJcMAAIjmRAAAIs39A= 41, 25 -- From: "Gibbon, Donald L." {donald.gibbon-at-matcoinc.com} 41, 25 -- To: {Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com} 41, 25 -- X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Jan 2010 22:31:10.0693 (UTC) FILETIME=[42A7C950:01CA9ED7] 41, 25 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 41, 25 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0QMVCO4023527 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
==============================Original Headers============================== 55, 28 -- From kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz Tue Jan 26 17:14:59 2010 55, 28 -- Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.123]) 55, 28 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0QNExA5007260 55, 28 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 17:14:59 -0600 55, 28 -- X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=cuFkkQOyR5wA:10 a=dBsAiYywAAAA:8 a=Zx37jsudAAAA:8 a=U-nsmsejAAAA:8 a=xNRMnUh6AAAA:8 a=cqvmlmxeAAAA:8 a=C3W4DVSWAAAA:8 a=T9gOxNRhAAAA:8 a=sGKcSeiLAAAA:8 a=8_ITXHuzAAAA:8 a=ZkH43-3uAAAA:8 a=b1jFz-nKAAAA:8 a=8pif782wAAAA:8 a=eUJmFPOgAAAA:8 a=NMuAF2b7AAAA:8 a=gWKp_hZmAAAA:8 a=-WhKYHScc3E5ASMvyvgA:9 a=uYZwWlVFFFocGh_oMG0A:7 a=M3M6SqWcNSeza4vATLqRgCRVb1gA:4 a=5JUlSvKOtR0A:10 a=fM1NKZWFy18A:10 a=SEuX1L-y0FMA:10 a=g6JCxQ12blAA:10 a=CVqNqQISH1cA:10 a=bqMkBtCajXsA:10 a=uNrlO47vivkA:10 a=h4fa0A604ksA:10 a=IOhM4Bw-63sA:10 a=3vyQu2Yt5R4A:10 a=LYv4pYcchfEA:10 a=-M0jVIKQNloA:10 a=G91thX30KR8A:10 a=LIfBf-QL-lAGG1X4:21 a=Ly9f1rvd2md7Kpvw:21 55, 28 -- X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 55, 28 -- X-Originating-IP: 72.227.111.133 55, 28 -- Received: from [72.227.111.133] ([72.227.111.133:3398] helo=Ken) 55, 28 -- by cdptpa-oedge01.mail.rr.com (envelope-from {kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz} ) 55, 28 -- (ecelerity 2.2.2.39 r()) with ESMTP 55, 28 -- id D6/4A-02205-2777F5B4; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 23:14:58 +0000 55, 28 -- From: "Ken Converse" {kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz} 55, 28 -- To: {donald.gibbon-at-matcoinc.com} , "MSA Listserver" {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 55, 28 -- Subject: RE: [Microscopy] FW: Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety 55, 28 -- Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 18:14:48 -0500 55, 28 -- Message-ID: {AAB114FE7FFF4BE1BA400B71BE8028D9-at-Ken} 55, 28 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 55, 28 -- Content-Type: text/plain; 55, 28 -- charset="UTF-8" 55, 28 -- X-Priority: 3 (Normal) 55, 28 -- X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 55, 28 -- X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6838 55, 28 -- Thread-Index: Acqe16lb6biq5MkVRICanNIV5gMa2wABNBkg 55, 28 -- In-Reply-To: {201001262233.o0QMXqLY027337-at-ns.microscopy.com} 55, 28 -- Importance: Normal 55, 28 -- X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 55, 28 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 55, 28 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0QNExA5007260 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
I prefer the hand-cranked version, myself. Not only does it give more direct tactile feedback on the overall thickness of the ice cream, but it gives the baby (To me) cousins something to do that is out of the way of my kitchen chaos on Thanksgiving!
As for the health aspect, there was a study that I read within the last three or four years (I can't remember anything specific) that said that the largest contributor to weight gain when eating is the mental state of the eater. I was discussing this with a colleague of mine and we came to the conclusion that it must be true, based on the French. (My apologies at this generalization, but I am basing my experience on the four incredible weeks I spent wandering around the French countryside...)
The French eat wonderfully decadent, flavorful, and rich foods, and drink gallons of truly elegant wine. Neither me nor my colleague remembered seeing any obese French people (We're sure they exist, but they don't seem to be the norm as it seems in the US). We also experienced the wonderful French culture of taking your time while eating, enjoying both the meal and the company, not rushing through it.
We could also come up with more French nationals who lived to respectable old age than we could of any other nationality.
I know that this is in no way a scientific observation, but it's still enough to make me want to wander around rural France for the rest of my life eating hand-churned ice cream...
Great. Now I'm hungry. First time this list has done that to me...
--Justin A. Kraft Professional Lab Rat/High Energy Physics Server Monkey Florida International University Miami, FL
-- "America believes in education; the average professor earns more money in a year than a professional athlete earns in a whole week." Evan Esar
n Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 6:19 PM, |--kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz--| wrote:
--| --| --| --| --| -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- --| The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of Americ= a --| To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- --| http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver --| On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html --| --| -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- --| --| Don, --| You're right! It's a dirty job, but somebody's got to do it. My wife an= d --| I got an electric ice cream maker as a wedding gift that we haven't used --| nearly enough. My favorite recipe not only includes the heavy cream, but= a --| half dozen eggs. To die for... --| --| Of course the kill-joys will tell us that the heavy cream, the cholestero= l --| in the eggs and all the sugar will kill us, not to mention the environmen= tal --| effects of all the cattle and chickens, plus the inhumane conditions they --| are kept in. --| --| I'll have another serving of that custard ice cream recipe, thank you. --| --| Ken Converse --| owner --| --| QUALITY IMAGES --| Servicing Scanning Electron Microscopes --| Since 1981 --| 474 So. Bridgton Rd. --| Bridgton, ME 04009 --| 207-647-4348 --| Fax 207-647-2688 --| kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz --| qualityimages.biz --| --| --| -----Original Message----- --| X-from: donald.gibbon-at-matcoinc.com [mailto:donald.gibbon-at-matcoinc.com] --| Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 5:34 PM --| To: kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz --| Subject: [Microscopy] FW: Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety --| --| --| --| --| --| -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- --| The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of Americ= a --| To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- --| http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver --| On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html --| --| -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- --| --| --| --| --| As a semi-professional ice cream maker, I'd like to second Wolfgang Muss'= s --| reference to the old-fashioned but utterly reliable and safe method of us= ing --| a hand-cranked ice cream freezer rather than any other option. There are --| reasons why this works well, which, if ignored, explain why it doesn't wo= rk --| sometimes! Making ice cream is an exercise in heat transfer and crystal --| growth. The heat transfer surface is the metal wall of the tub which is --| rotated by the crank. Counter-rotating inside the tube is a pair of woode= n --| paddles, keeping that surface clean and free of ice, constantly removing = the --| freezing cream. The idea is to get a eutectic mixture of salt and ice on = the --| outside, i.e., minimum possible temperature in this system, dump in the --| cream and start cranking. Don't ever stop for even one second. i.e., keep --| that surface clean, and in six-eight minutes your job will be done. The i= dea --| is to maximize the number of crystals and minimize their size. It is NOT = a --| tedious process, ! --| hardly enough to get winded. --| --| My most sought-after publication in my entire life was my paper on The --| Thermodynamics of Homemade Ice Cream, published in the Journal Of Chemica= l --| Education. I still have the thermocouple-fitted ice cream freezer in whic= h --| we made many gallons of ice cream, doing the experimental work for this --| paper. Somebody had to do it! And sticking your finger in the ice cream w= ill --| not harm you at all! --| --| Donald L. Gibbon --| --| -----Original Message----- --| X-from: W.Muss-at-salk.at [mailto:W.Muss-at-salk.at] --| Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 12:23 PM --| To: Gibbon, Donald L. --| Subject: [Microscopy] Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety --| --| --| --| --| --| -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- --| The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of Americ= a --| To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- --| http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver --| On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html --| --| -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- --| --| Good morning, good afternoon, good evening - hopefully any somewhere will --| apply, --| hello, dear colleagues, --| --| Just to add my 2 =C3=83=C2=A2=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=A1=C3=82=C2=AC-cents (apo= logize if the message became too long): --| --| Yes, we can discuss about children STICK THEIR FINGERS IN THE LIQUID --| NITROGEN and other stuff.... in general, --| since in EM we sometimes have to work with 'cruel' things and substances --| (and others a little bit more often). --| Cryogenics also CAN be hazardous (as --|hot|-- water is/can be), depending on --| how we are --|working with|-- it. --| If we couldn't do that safe(ly) it necessarily / perhaps would have been --| forbidden for a long time. --| --| There are a lot of sources on the web one can find concerning use and --| misuse of e. g. liquid nitrogen: --| for example: --| --| http://www.altair.org/hazard.html (DONT DIE ! Laboratory Hazards: Safety= , --| Prevention, First Aid, C 2001-2010) --| --| --| http://www.reachoutmichigan.org/funexperiments/agesubject/lessons/nitroge= n.html --| ( "Fun experiments" website last updated 2003) --| --| --| http://smb.slac.stanford.edu/users_guide/manual/Experiment_policies.html#= SECTION00027000000000000000 --| (describes hazards and proper handling procedures for work with liquid --| nitrogen, 2010) --| --| http://stores.biochem.uiowa.edu/Pages/ln2msds.htm --| ("old" but IMO "good" example for a US-Univ's Safety Data Sheet) --| --| --| http://www.chaosscience.org.uk/dem/public_html//article.php?story=3D20031= 216175107931 --| (Liquid Nitrogen Risk Assessment, 16/12/03 ) --| --| Also, some Labs are questioning in advance for safety issues on the thing= s --| someone will bring into the Lab: --| e.g. http://www.sbc.anl.gov/pdfs/hazard_assessment_form.pdf (take a look --| for 'cryogens', Argonne Natl. Lab, SBC Hazard Assessment Form), perhaps j= ust --| to be on the safe side for their own staff people and Lab's interior. --| --| AND finally, YES, LN2-ingestion - to take a mouthfull of LN2 and blast it --| off - only for the EXPERIENCED CAN BE a junky-funky trick, BUT - --| on the other side - for the unexperienced (unfortunately also for the --| 'careless' experienced I have to admit!) - it could be not only dangerous --| but LIFE threatening: cf. --| http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/reprint/105/1/121 --| ( Benjamin Z. Koplewitz, et al.... Gastric Perforation Attributable to --| Liquid Nitrogen Ingestion, --| in: Pediatrics 2000;105;121-123, open Access) --| --| A similar situation has been reported on --| http://www.darwinawards.com/personal/personal2000-25.html, --| which eventually was --|awarded|-- with the DARWIN AWARD in 2000 (=3D=3D--|cit:= "The --| Darwin Awards salute the improvement of the human genome by honoring thos= e --| who accidentally remove themselves from it..." end of cit.) --| --| I personally have no doubt that it IS possible (and I have done that for --| demonstration of "Leidenfrost phenomenon" a lot of times way back...) to --| place one or two fingers, eventually(and forsure) the whole hand into liq= uid --| nitrogen for 1-2 seconds, PROVIDED some necessary PREREQUISITES which - I= N --| ADVANCE - have to be theoretically explained and are to be met to/for tho= se --| --|trying|-- such an "adventure" and IMO only should be done in a SUPERVISED --| situation. --| --| Despite (or better: BECAUSE) respecting all those "little" |--problem-maker= s--| --| in our daily work --| (if this is not done by other staff members, I have to to do such work --| literally by myself) I am not in a blue funk of perhaps desastrous result= s --| of using/handling all those substances like --| OsO4 (hazard, toxic), p-phenylenediamine (pesticide, toxic), uranyl-aceta= te --| from stock powder (radioactive), cryogens (like LN2, precooled isobutane, --| also Freon gas [some residual inventory] if the pressurized can will be u= sed --| inverted) and other substances/chemicals (mostly used in very small --| quantities), not to forget all those "may be hazardous resins" out in the --| dark... --| --| WHY I am NOT AFRAID/do not fear those: since I have learned - before --| handling and using those - --| WHAT the respective properties of materials/substances/fluids are, --| HOW they have ( practically ) to be used safely, --| WHAT the consequences eventually will be (personal and for others) if --| handled unsafe, and --| HOW to dispose of (remnants, by-products of reactions, etc.) properly. --| --| (as an example for awareness: read: --| http://www.hull.ac.uk/chemstores/coshhadv.html (COSHH- Control of --| Substances Hazardous to Health, Univ.Hull, UK: 'part of the U.K.'s CRIMI= NAL --| LAW' !) --| --| Anybody who has |--studied--| properties of chemicals etc., their handling an= d --| use properly and correctly will know how to proceed with the use of mater= ial --| and substances we use in an EM-lab. If this has not be done, no one shoul= d --| do --|things|-- he never got explained and does not know about consequences i= n --| case of misuse. --| --| There IMO is no need to disallow or eventually prohibit (necessary) actio= ns --| which to the unexperienced (perhaps) will be harmful, but to the experien= ced --| does not apply seriously. --| So, last but not least: it is the responsibilty of the "experienced" to --| teach the unexperienced... so you as the |--experienced--| decide what can be --| done/shown and what CANNOT be done /shown. --| --| Concerning: Ice-Cream-experiments with LN2, those perhaps are an --| "interesting" demonstration for a new practical application but easily --| can/could be safely substituted by |--old fashioned--| ice-cream-making (e.g --| lowering the temperature of the fluids by using eg. the pot-freezer meth= od: --| the temperature of the ingredients is reduced by placing them inside a tu= b --| filled with ice and salt) Cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_cream . --| --| At the end: just only pointing to the long MSA thread on --|N2 gas-LN2|-- --| starting May 2nd 2009 --| Conc: [Microscopy] Nitrogen leak (JEOL 6701F SEM) --| --| --| Regards, --| Wolfgang MUSS --| Head EM-Lab, Pathology --| SALK-LKH (Gen. Hosp.) --| SALZBURG Austria --| --| --| --| --| --| -----Urspr=C3=83=C6=92=C3=82=C2=BCngliche Nachricht----- --| --| Von: richard.ross-at-allisontransmission.com --| --| [mailto:richard.ross-at-allisontransmission.com] --| --| Gesendet: Dienstag, 26. J=C3=83=C6=92=C3=82=C2=A4nner 2010 14:57 --| --| An: Mu=C3=83=C6=92=C3=85=C2=B8 Wolfgang --| --| Betreff: [Microscopy] Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety [Ice-Cream made with --| --| LN2, concerns about] --| --| --| --| --| -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - --| --| The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of --| America --| --| To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- --| http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver --| --| On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html --| --| --| -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- --| --| Way back when, Chuck Fiori used to put on a demo with LN2 at the LeHigh --| SEM school. --| Chuck wanted to show that sometimes its more hazardous to trap LN2 agains= t --| the body with protective gear than to give the liedenfrost effect room to --| create its protective blanket of gas. If the LN2 was provided, he would --| eventually take some into his mouth and blow 'smoke' rings. He told of a --| time when he accidentally swallowed some of the LN2 and the resulting --| stomach gas pressure caused him to black out, falling to the stage --| unconscious. --| Ultimately the excess pressure relieved itself as a belch and Chuck came --| to. --| Chuck certainly taught me things in ways that I remember! |-- --| --| --| --| =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DOriginal --| Headers=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --| --| 1, 25 -- From richard.ross-at-allisontransmission.com Tue Jan 26 07:53:09 --| 2010 --| --| 1, 25 -- Received: from plmler2.mail.eds.com (plmler2.mail.eds.com[199.= 228.142.72]) --| --| 1, 25 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP --| id o0QDr9dN015534 --| --| 1, 25 -- for |--microscopy-at-microscopy.com--|; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 07:53:0= 9 --| -0600 --| --| 1, 25 -- Received: from plmlir1.mail.eds.com (plmlir1-2.mail.eds.com[19= 9.228.142.131]) --| --| 1, 25 -- by plmler2.mail.eds.com (8.14.2/8.13.8) with ESMTP id --| o0QDr9vK015878 --| --| 1, 25 -- for |--microscopy-at-microscopy.com--|; 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If you think that you have received this E-mail message in erro= r, --| please --| reply to the sender. --| --| For more information about Valmont Industries, Inc., please visit our web --| site at --| www.valmont.com --| --| --| =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DOriginal --| Headers=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --| 41, 25 -- From donald.gibbon-at-matcoinc.com Tue Jan 26 16:31:13 2010 --| 41, 25 -- Received: from smtp1.valmont.com (smtp1.valmont.com[72.165.239.= 151]) --| 41, 25 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP --| id o0QMVCO4023527 --| 41, 25 -- for |--Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com--|; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 16:31:1= 2 --| -0600 --| 41, 25 -- X-TM-IMSS-Message-ID: |--5ea52afe0001887e-at-smtp1.valmont.com--| --| 41, 25 -- Received: from valmailbh1.na.valmont.com ([172.16.0.51]) by --| smtp1.valmont.com ([192.168.123.151]) with ESMTP (TREND IMSS SMTP Service --| 7.0) id 5ea52afe0001887e ; 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Tue, 26 Jan 2010 23:14:58 +0000 --| 55, 28 -- From: "Ken Converse" |--kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz--| --| 55, 28 -- To: |--donald.gibbon-at-matcoinc.com--|, "MSA Listserver" |-- --| microscopy-at-microscopy.com--| --| 55, 28 -- Subject: RE: [Microscopy] FW: Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety --| 55, 28 -- Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 18:14:48 -0500 --| 55, 28 -- Message-ID: |--AAB114FE7FFF4BE1BA400B71BE8028D9-at-Ken--| --| 55, 28 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 --| 55, 28 -- Content-Type: text/plain; --| 55, 28 -- charset=3D"UTF-8" --| 55, 28 -- X-Priority: 3 (Normal) --| 55, 28 -- X-MSMail-Priority: Normal --| 55, 28 -- X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6838 --| 55, 28 -- Thread-Index: Acqe16lb6biq5MkVRICanNIV5gMa2wABNBkg --| 55, 28 -- In-Reply-To: |--201001262233.o0QMXqLY027337-at-ns.microscopy.com--| --| 55, 28 -- Importance: Normal --| 55, 28 -- X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 --| 55, 28 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --| 55, 28 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by --| ns.microscopy.com id o0QNExA5007260 --| =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DEnd of - --| Headers=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --|
--=20 "America believes in education; the average professor earns more money in a year than a professional athlete earns in a whole week." Evan Esar
I prefer the hand-cranked version, myself. =C2=A0Not only does it give more= direct tactile feedback on the overall thickness of the ice cream, but it = gives the baby (To me) cousins something to do that is out of the way of my= kitchen chaos on Thanksgiving!|--div--| |--br--||--/div--||--div--|As for the health aspect, there was a study that I read with= in the last three or four years (I can't remember anything specific) th= at said that the largest contributor to weight gain when eating is the ment= al state of the eater. =C2=A0I was discussing this with a colleague of mine= and we came to the conclusion that it must be true, based on the French. = =C2=A0(My apologies at this generalization, but I am basing my experience o= n the four incredible weeks I spent wandering around the French countryside= ...) =C2=A0|--/div--| |--div--||--br--||--/div--||--div--|The French eat wonderfully decadent, flavorful, and ric= h foods, and drink gallons of truly elegant wine. =C2=A0Neither me nor my c= olleague remembered seeing any obese French people (We're sure they exi= st, but they don't seem to be the norm as it seems in the US). =C2=A0We= also experienced the wonderful French culture of taking your time while ea= ting, enjoying both the meal and the company, not rushing through it.|--/div--| |--div--||--br--||--/div--||--div--|We could also come up with more French nationals who li= ved to respectable old age than we could of any other nationality.|--/div--||--di= v--||--br--||--/div--||--div--|I know that this is in no way a scientific observation, bu= t it's still enough to make me want to wander around rural France for t= he rest of my life eating hand-churned ice cream...|--/div--| |--div--||--br--||--/div--||--div--|Great. =C2=A0Now I'm hungry. =C2=A0First time this = list has done that to me...|--/div--||--div--||--br--||--/div--||--div--|--Justin A. Kraft|--/div= --||--div--|Professional Lab Rat/High Energy Physics Server Monkey|--/div--||--div--|Flor= ida International University|--/div--| |--div--|Miami, FL|--br--||--br--||--div class=3D"gmail_quote"--|On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 6:= 19 PM, |--span dir=3D"ltr"--|<|--a href=3D"mailto:kenconverse-at-qualityimages.b= iz"--|kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz|--/a--|>|--/span--| wrote:|--br--||--blockquote clas= s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pad= ding-left:1ex;"--| |--div class=3D"im"--||--br--| |--br--| |--br--| ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -|--br--| The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: =C2=A0The Microscopy Society of Ame= rica|--br--| To =C2=A0Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- |--a href=3D"http://www.microscopy.com/Micr= oscopyListserver On-Line" target=3D"_blank"--|http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver|--b= r--| On-Line|--/a--| Help |--a href=3D"http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/= FAQ.html" target=3D"_blank"--|http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/= FAQ.html|--/a--||--br--| ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -|--br--| |--br--| |--/div--|Don,|--br--| You're right! =C2=A0It's a dirty job, but somebody's got to do = it. =C2=A0My wife and I got an electric ice cream maker as a wedding gift t= hat we haven't used nearly enough. =C2=A0My favorite recipe not only in= cludes the heavy cream, but a half dozen eggs. =C2=A0To die for...|--br--|
|--br--| Of course the kill-joys will tell us that the heavy cream, the cholesterol = in the eggs and all the sugar will kill us, not to mention the environmenta= l effects of all the cattle and chickens, plus the inhumane conditions they= are kept in.|--br--|
|--br--| I'll have another serving of that custard ice cream recipe, thank you.|--= br--| |--div class=3D"im"--||--br--| Ken Converse|--br--| owner|--br--| |--br--| QUALITY IMAGES|--br--| Servicing Scanning Electron Microscopes|--br--| Since 1981|--br--| 474 So. Bridgton Rd.|--br--| Bridgton, ME =C2=A004009|--br--| 207-647-4348|--br--| Fax 207-647-2688|--br--| |--a href=3D"mailto:kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz"--|kenconverse-at-qualityimages.= biz|--/a--||--br--| |--a href=3D"http://qualityimages.biz" target=3D"_blank"--|qualityimages.biz|--/a= --||--br--| |--br--| |--br--| -----Original Message-----|--br--| |--/div--||--div class=3D"im"--|X-from: |--a href=3D"mailto:donald.gibbon-at-matcoinc.co= m"--|donald.gibbon-at-matcoinc.com|--/a--| [mailto:|--a href=3D"mailto:donald.gibbon-at-m= atcoinc.com"--|donald.gibbon-at-matcoinc.com|--/a--|]|--br--| Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 5:34 PM|--br--| To: |--a href=3D"mailto:kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz"--|kenconverse-at-qualityima= ges.biz|--/a--||--br--| |--/div--||--div class=3D"im"--|Subject: [Microscopy] FW: Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safet= y|--br--| |--br--| |--br--| |--br--| |--br--| ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -|--br--| The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: =C2=A0The Microscopy Society of Ame= rica|--br--| To =C2=A0Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- |--a href=3D"http://www.microscopy.com/Micr= oscopyListserver On-Line" target=3D"_blank"--|http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver|--b= r--| On-Line|--/a--| Help |--a href=3D"http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/= FAQ.html" target=3D"_blank"--|http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/= FAQ.html|--/a--||--br--| ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -|--br--| |--br--| |--br--| |--br--| |--br--| |--/div--|As a semi-professional ice cream maker, I'd like to second Wolfga= ng Muss's reference to the old-fashioned but utterly reliable and safe = method of using a hand-cranked ice cream freezer rather than any other opti= on. There are reasons why this works well, which, if ignored, explain why i= t doesn't work sometimes! Making ice cream is an exercise in heat trans= fer and crystal growth. The heat transfer surface is the metal wall of the = tub which is rotated by the crank. Counter-rotating inside the tube is a pa= ir of wooden paddles, keeping that surface clean and free of ice, constantl= y removing the freezing cream. The idea is to get a eutectic mixture of sal= t and ice on the outside, i.e., minimum possible temperature in this system= , dump in the cream and start cranking. Don't ever stop for even one se= cond. i.e., keep that surface clean, and in six-eight minutes your job will= be done. The idea is to maximize the number of crystals and minimize their= size. It is NOT a tedious process, !|--br--|
=C2=A0hardly enough to get winded.|--br--| |--br--| My most sought-after publication in my entire life was my paper on The Ther= modynamics of Homemade Ice Cream, published in the Journal Of Chemical Educ= ation. I still have the thermocouple-fitted ice cream freezer in which we m= ade many gallons of ice cream, doing the experimental work for this paper. = Somebody had to do it! And sticking your finger in the ice cream will not h= arm you at all!|--br--|
|--br--| Donald L. Gibbon|--br--| |--div class=3D"im"--||--br--| -----Original Message-----|--br--| X-from: |--a href=3D"mailto:W.Muss-at-salk.at"--|W.Muss-at-salk.at|--/a--| [mailto:|--a hre= f=3D"mailto:W.Muss-at-salk.at"--|W.Muss-at-salk.at|--/a--|]|--br--| Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 12:23 PM|--br--| To: Gibbon, Donald L.|--br--|
This Question/Comment was submitted to the Microscopy Listserver using the WWW based Form at http://www.microscopy.com/MLFormMail.html --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Remember this posting is most likely not from a Subscriber, so when replying please copy both Robert.Brandom-at-Bruker-AXS.com as well as the MIcroscopy Listserver ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Email: Robert.Brandom-at-Bruker-AXS.com Name: Robert Brandom
Organization: New England Society for Microscopy
Title-Subject: [Filtered] NESM -- February 9 Dinner Meeting
Message: Greetings to all:
The NESM February Meeting is set for Tuesday evening, February 9, 2010.
This first of 4 NESM events for 2010 is being hosted by Bruker Corporation at their facility in Billerica, MA.
The preliminary agenda is as follows:
5:45-6:15 PM Registration & Bruker Open House
6:15-7:25 PM Buffet Supper (Open House continues)
7:25 PM Introductory Remarks - Warren MoberlyChan, 2010 NESM President
7:30-9:00 PM Technical Presentations
ìSpectroscopy in the Microscopy Worldî Thomas J Tague Jr., Ph.D. Bruker Optics, Inc.
ìDirect Correlation Between Optical and Structural Properties on the Nanoscale: Cathodoluminescence in Scanning Transmission Electron Microscopy ì Silvija GradeËak, Ph.D. Department of Materials Science and Engineering Massachusetts Institute of Technology
9:00 PM Adjourn
The charge for this meeting will be collected at the event as follows:
} } NESM Members - $20 } } Students and retirees and members between } } jobs - $10 } } Non-Members - $40 (this will } } include a discounted membership for 2010) } } The above rates will apply to all those who RSVP in Advance } } All walk-ins who do not RSVP will be charged an additional $5
Please RSVP via email to nesm67-at-charter.net by Friday, Feb 5, 2010.
Full details including speaker abstract and bios, map and directions to Bruker can be found at the NESM website.
http://nesm.cims.harvard.edu/NESM_04.htm
We look forward to seeing you in Billerica !!
Bruker Corporation (meeting at Bruker Daltonics building) 40 Manning Road Billerica, MA 01821
Need help en-route ñ call Robert Brandom (978) 257-3122
This Question/Comment was submitted to the Microscopy Listserver using the WWW based Form at http://www.microscopy.com/MLFormMail.html --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Remember this posting is most likely not from a Subscriber, so when replying please copy both apeer-at-halifax.k12.va.us as well as the MIcroscopy Listserver ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am happy that you enjoyed the french way-of-life. I think that, rather the mental state, the amount eaten probably plays a critical role in weight gain. Actually french enjoy tasteful meals because they eat for the pleasure, so they prefer to eat less but better. The same comes with the beer between Belgium and Germany f.e.: the belgian beer comes in 25cl while the german in 0,5L flasks. Eat slowly also helps the digestion. It is both a question of psychical and physical pleasure. This makes me almost forget that I am not french. Well all the same...
Stephane
PS: why do we start a discussion about how to make ice-cream when there is -15°C outside!!
----- Original Message ---- X-from: "kraftpiano-at-gmail.com" {kraftpiano-at-gmail.com} To: nizets2-at-yahoo.com Sent: Wed, January 27, 2010 12:51:07 AM
I prefer the hand-cranked version, myself. Not only does it give more direct tactile feedback on the overall thickness of the ice cream, but it gives the baby (To me) cousins something to do that is out of the way of my kitchen chaos on Thanksgiving!
As for the health aspect, there was a study that I read within the last three or four years (I can't remember anything specific) that said that the largest contributor to weight gain when eating is the mental state of the eater. I was discussing this with a colleague of mine and we came to the conclusion that it must be true, based on the French. (My apologies at this generalization, but I am basing my experience on the four incredible weeks I spent wandering around the French countryside...)
The French eat wonderfully decadent, flavorful, and rich foods, and drink gallons of truly elegant wine. Neither me nor my colleague remembered seeing any obese French people (We're sure they exist, but they don't seem to be the norm as it seems in the US). We also experienced the wonderful French culture of taking your time while eating, enjoying both the meal and the company, not rushing through it.
We could also come up with more French nationals who lived to respectable old age than we could of any other nationality.
I know that this is in no way a scientific observation, but it's still enough to make me want to wander around rural France for the rest of my life eating hand-churned ice cream...
Great. Now I'm hungry. First time this list has done that to me...
--Justin A. Kraft Professional Lab Rat/High Energy Physics Server Monkey Florida International University Miami, FL
-- "America believes in education; the average professor earns more money in a year than a professional athlete earns in a whole week." Evan Esar
n Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 6:19 PM, |--kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz--| wrote:
--| --| --| --| --| -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- --| The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of Americ= a --| To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- --| http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver --| On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html --| --| -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- --| --| Don, --| You're right! It's a dirty job, but somebody's got to do it. My wife an= d --| I got an electric ice cream maker as a wedding gift that we haven't used --| nearly enough. My favorite recipe not only includes the heavy cream, but= a --| half dozen eggs. To die for... --| --| Of course the kill-joys will tell us that the heavy cream, the cholestero= l --| in the eggs and all the sugar will kill us, not to mention the environmen= tal --| effects of all the cattle and chickens, plus the inhumane conditions they --| are kept in. --| --| I'll have another serving of that custard ice cream recipe, thank you. --| --| Ken Converse --| owner --| --| QUALITY IMAGES --| Servicing Scanning Electron Microscopes --| Since 1981 --| 474 So. Bridgton Rd. --| Bridgton, ME 04009 --| 207-647-4348 --| Fax 207-647-2688 --| kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz --| qualityimages.biz --| --| --| -----Original Message----- --| X-from: donald.gibbon-at-matcoinc.com [mailto:donald.gibbon-at-matcoinc.com] --| Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 5:34 PM --| To: kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz --| Subject: [Microscopy] FW: Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety --| --| --| --| --| --| -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- --| The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of Americ= a --| To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- --| http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver --| On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html --| --| -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- --| --| --| --| --| As a semi-professional ice cream maker, I'd like to second Wolfgang Muss'= s --| reference to the old-fashioned but utterly reliable and safe method of us= ing --| a hand-cranked ice cream freezer rather than any other option. There are --| reasons why this works well, which, if ignored, explain why it doesn't wo= rk --| sometimes! Making ice cream is an exercise in heat transfer and crystal --| growth. The heat transfer surface is the metal wall of the tub which is --| rotated by the crank. Counter-rotating inside the tube is a pair of woode= n --| paddles, keeping that surface clean and free of ice, constantly removing = the --| freezing cream. The idea is to get a eutectic mixture of salt and ice on = the --| outside, i.e., minimum possible temperature in this system, dump in the --| cream and start cranking. Don't ever stop for even one second. i.e., keep --| that surface clean, and in six-eight minutes your job will be done. The i= dea --| is to maximize the number of crystals and minimize their size. It is NOT = a --| tedious process, ! --| hardly enough to get winded. --| --| My most sought-after publication in my entire life was my paper on The --| Thermodynamics of Homemade Ice Cream, published in the Journal Of Chemica= l --| Education. I still have the thermocouple-fitted ice cream freezer in whic= h --| we made many gallons of ice cream, doing the experimental work for this --| paper. Somebody had to do it! And sticking your finger in the ice cream w= ill --| not harm you at all! --| --| Donald L. Gibbon --| --| -----Original Message----- --| X-from: W.Muss-at-salk.at [mailto:W.Muss-at-salk.at] --| Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 12:23 PM --| To: Gibbon, Donald L. --| Subject: [Microscopy] Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety --| --| --| --| --| --| -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- --| The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of Americ= a --| To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- --| http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver --| On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html --| --| -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- --| --| Good morning, good afternoon, good evening - hopefully any somewhere will --| apply, --| hello, dear colleagues, --| --| Just to add my 2 =C3=83=C2=A2=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=A1=C3=82=C2=AC-cents (apo= logize if the message became too long): --| --| Yes, we can discuss about children STICK THEIR FINGERS IN THE LIQUID --| NITROGEN and other stuff.... in general, --| since in EM we sometimes have to work with 'cruel' things and substances --| (and others a little bit more often). --| Cryogenics also CAN be hazardous (as --|hot|-- water is/can be), depending on --| how we are --|working with|-- it. --| If we couldn't do that safe(ly) it necessarily / perhaps would have been --| forbidden for a long time. --| --| There are a lot of sources on the web one can find concerning use and --| misuse of e. g. liquid nitrogen: --| for example: --| --| http://www.altair.org/hazard.html (DONT DIE ! Laboratory Hazards: Safety= , --| Prevention, First Aid, C 2001-2010) --| --| --| http://www.reachoutmichigan.org/funexperiments/agesubject/lessons/nitroge= n.html --| ( "Fun experiments" website last updated 2003) --| --| --| http://smb.slac.stanford.edu/users_guide/manual/Experiment_policies.html#= SECTION00027000000000000000 --| (describes hazards and proper handling procedures for work with liquid --| nitrogen, 2010) --| --| http://stores.biochem.uiowa.edu/Pages/ln2msds.htm --| ("old" but IMO "good" example for a US-Univ's Safety Data Sheet) --| --| --| http://www.chaosscience.org.uk/dem/public_html//article.php?story=3D20031= 216175107931 --| (Liquid Nitrogen Risk Assessment, 16/12/03 ) --| --| Also, some Labs are questioning in advance for safety issues on the thing= s --| someone will bring into the Lab: --| e.g. http://www.sbc.anl.gov/pdfs/hazard_assessment_form.pdf (take a look --| for 'cryogens', Argonne Natl. Lab, SBC Hazard Assessment Form), perhaps j= ust --| to be on the safe side for their own staff people and Lab's interior. --| --| AND finally, YES, LN2-ingestion - to take a mouthfull of LN2 and blast it --| off - only for the EXPERIENCED CAN BE a junky-funky trick, BUT - --| on the other side - for the unexperienced (unfortunately also for the --| 'careless' experienced I have to admit!) - it could be not only dangerous --| but LIFE threatening: cf. --| http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/reprint/105/1/121 --| ( Benjamin Z. Koplewitz, et al.... Gastric Perforation Attributable to --| Liquid Nitrogen Ingestion, --| in: Pediatrics 2000;105;121-123, open Access) --| --| A similar situation has been reported on --| http://www.darwinawards.com/personal/personal2000-25.html, --| which eventually was --|awarded|-- with the DARWIN AWARD in 2000 (=3D=3D--|cit:= "The --| Darwin Awards salute the improvement of the human genome by honoring thos= e --| who accidentally remove themselves from it..." end of cit.) --| --| I personally have no doubt that it IS possible (and I have done that for --| demonstration of "Leidenfrost phenomenon" a lot of times way back...) to --| place one or two fingers, eventually(and forsure) the whole hand into liq= uid --| nitrogen for 1-2 seconds, PROVIDED some necessary PREREQUISITES which - I= N --| ADVANCE - have to be theoretically explained and are to be met to/for tho= se --| --|trying|-- such an "adventure" and IMO only should be done in a SUPERVISED --| situation. --| --| Despite (or better: BECAUSE) respecting all those "little" |--problem-maker= s--| --| in our daily work --| (if this is not done by other staff members, I have to to do such work --| literally by myself) I am not in a blue funk of perhaps desastrous result= s --| of using/handling all those substances like --| OsO4 (hazard, toxic), p-phenylenediamine (pesticide, toxic), uranyl-aceta= te --| from stock powder (radioactive), cryogens (like LN2, precooled isobutane, --| also Freon gas [some residual inventory] if the pressurized can will be u= sed --| inverted) and other substances/chemicals (mostly used in very small --| quantities), not to forget all those "may be hazardous resins" out in the --| dark... --| --| WHY I am NOT AFRAID/do not fear those: since I have learned - before --| handling and using those - --| WHAT the respective properties of materials/substances/fluids are, --| HOW they have ( practically ) to be used safely, --| WHAT the consequences eventually will be (personal and for others) if --| handled unsafe, and --| HOW to dispose of (remnants, by-products of reactions, etc.) properly. --| --| (as an example for awareness: read: --| http://www.hull.ac.uk/chemstores/coshhadv.html (COSHH- Control of --| Substances Hazardous to Health, Univ.Hull, UK: 'part of the U.K.'s CRIMI= NAL --| LAW' !) --| --| Anybody who has |--studied--| properties of chemicals etc., their handling an= d --| use properly and correctly will know how to proceed with the use of mater= ial --| and substances we use in an EM-lab. If this has not be done, no one shoul= d --| do --|things|-- he never got explained and does not know about consequences i= n --| case of misuse. --| --| There IMO is no need to disallow or eventually prohibit (necessary) actio= ns --| which to the unexperienced (perhaps) will be harmful, but to the experien= ced --| does not apply seriously. --| So, last but not least: it is the responsibilty of the "experienced" to --| teach the unexperienced... so you as the |--experienced--| decide what can be --| done/shown and what CANNOT be done /shown. --| --| Concerning: Ice-Cream-experiments with LN2, those perhaps are an --| "interesting" demonstration for a new practical application but easily --| can/could be safely substituted by |--old fashioned--| ice-cream-making (e.g --| lowering the temperature of the fluids by using eg. the pot-freezer meth= od: --| the temperature of the ingredients is reduced by placing them inside a tu= b --| filled with ice and salt) Cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_cream . --| --| At the end: just only pointing to the long MSA thread on --|N2 gas-LN2|-- --| starting May 2nd 2009 --| Conc: [Microscopy] Nitrogen leak (JEOL 6701F SEM) --| --| --| Regards, --| Wolfgang MUSS --| Head EM-Lab, Pathology --| SALK-LKH (Gen. Hosp.) --| SALZBURG Austria --| --| --| --| --| --| -----Urspr=C3=83=C6=92=C3=82=C2=BCngliche Nachricht----- --| --| Von: richard.ross-at-allisontransmission.com --| --| [mailto:richard.ross-at-allisontransmission.com] --| --| Gesendet: Dienstag, 26. J=C3=83=C6=92=C3=82=C2=A4nner 2010 14:57 --| --| An: Mu=C3=83=C6=92=C3=85=C2=B8 Wolfgang --| --| Betreff: [Microscopy] Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety [Ice-Cream made with --| --| LN2, concerns about] --| --| --| --| --| -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - --| --| The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of --| America --| --| To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- --| http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver --| --| On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html --| --| --| -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- --| --| Way back when, Chuck Fiori used to put on a demo with LN2 at the LeHigh --| SEM school. --| Chuck wanted to show that sometimes its more hazardous to trap LN2 agains= t --| the body with protective gear than to give the liedenfrost effect room to --| create its protective blanket of gas. If the LN2 was provided, he would --| eventually take some into his mouth and blow 'smoke' rings. He told of a --| time when he accidentally swallowed some of the LN2 and the resulting --| stomach gas pressure caused him to black out, falling to the stage --| unconscious. --| Ultimately the excess pressure relieved itself as a belch and Chuck came --| to. --| Chuck certainly taught me things in ways that I remember! |-- --| --| --| --| =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DOriginal --| Headers=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --| --| 1, 25 -- From richard.ross-at-allisontransmission.com Tue Jan 26 07:53:09 --| 2010 --| --| 1, 25 -- Received: from plmler2.mail.eds.com (plmler2.mail.eds.com[199.= 228.142.72]) --| --| 1, 25 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP --| id o0QDr9dN015534 --| --| 1, 25 -- for |--microscopy-at-microscopy.com--|; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 07:53:0= 9 --| -0600 --| --| 1, 25 -- Received: from plmlir1.mail.eds.com (plmlir1-2.mail.eds.com[19= 9.228.142.131]) --| --| 1, 25 -- by plmler2.mail.eds.com (8.14.2/8.13.8) with ESMTP id --| o0QDr9vK015878 --| --| 1, 25 -- for |--microscopy-at-microscopy.com--|; 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--=20 "America believes in education; the average professor earns more money in a year than a professional athlete earns in a whole week." Evan Esar
I prefer the hand-cranked version, myself. =C2=A0Not only does it give more= direct tactile feedback on the overall thickness of the ice cream, but it = gives the baby (To me) cousins something to do that is out of the way of my= kitchen chaos on Thanksgiving!|--div--| |--br--||--/div--||--div--|As for the health aspect, there was a study that I read with= in the last three or four years (I can't remember anything specific) th= at said that the largest contributor to weight gain when eating is the ment= al state of the eater. =C2=A0I was discussing this with a colleague of mine= and we came to the conclusion that it must be true, based on the French. = =C2=A0(My apologies at this generalization, but I am basing my experience o= n the four incredible weeks I spent wandering around the French countryside= ...) =C2=A0|--/div--| |--div--||--br--||--/div--||--div--|The French eat wonderfully decadent, flavorful, and ric= h foods, and drink gallons of truly elegant wine. =C2=A0Neither me nor my c= olleague remembered seeing any obese French people (We're sure they exi= st, but they don't seem to be the norm as it seems in the US). =C2=A0We= also experienced the wonderful French culture of taking your time while ea= ting, enjoying both the meal and the company, not rushing through it.|--/div--| |--div--||--br--||--/div--||--div--|We could also come up with more French nationals who li= ved to respectable old age than we could of any other nationality.|--/div--||--di= v--||--br--||--/div--||--div--|I know that this is in no way a scientific observation, bu= t it's still enough to make me want to wander around rural France for t= he rest of my life eating hand-churned ice cream...|--/div--| |--div--||--br--||--/div--||--div--|Great. =C2=A0Now I'm hungry. =C2=A0First time this = list has done that to me...|--/div--||--div--||--br--||--/div--||--div--|--Justin A. Kraft|--/div= --||--div--|Professional Lab Rat/High Energy Physics Server Monkey|--/div--||--div--|Flor= ida International University|--/div--| |--div--|Miami, FL|--br--||--br--||--div class=3D"gmail_quote"--|On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 6:= 19 PM, |--span dir=3D"ltr"--|<|--a href=3D"mailto:kenconverse-at-qualityimages.b= iz"--|kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz|--/a--|>|--/span--| wrote:|--br--||--blockquote clas= s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pad= ding-left:1ex;"--| |--div class=3D"im"--||--br--| |--br--| |--br--| ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -|--br--| The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: =C2=A0The Microscopy Society of Ame= rica|--br--| To =C2=A0Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- |--a href=3D"http://www.microscopy.com/Micr= oscopyListserver On-Line" target=3D"_blank"--|http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver|--b= r--| On-Line|--/a--| Help |--a href=3D"http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/= FAQ.html" target=3D"_blank"--|http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/= FAQ.html|--/a--||--br--| ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -|--br--| |--br--| |--/div--|Don,|--br--| You're right! =C2=A0It's a dirty job, but somebody's got to do = it. =C2=A0My wife and I got an electric ice cream maker as a wedding gift t= hat we haven't used nearly enough. =C2=A0My favorite recipe not only in= cludes the heavy cream, but a half dozen eggs. =C2=A0To die for...|--br--|
|--br--| Of course the kill-joys will tell us that the heavy cream, the cholesterol = in the eggs and all the sugar will kill us, not to mention the environmenta= l effects of all the cattle and chickens, plus the inhumane conditions they= are kept in.|--br--|
|--br--| I'll have another serving of that custard ice cream recipe, thank you.|--= br--| |--div class=3D"im"--||--br--| Ken Converse|--br--| owner|--br--| |--br--| QUALITY IMAGES|--br--| Servicing Scanning Electron Microscopes|--br--| Since 1981|--br--| 474 So. Bridgton Rd.|--br--| Bridgton, ME =C2=A004009|--br--| 207-647-4348|--br--| Fax 207-647-2688|--br--| |--a href=3D"mailto:kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz"--|kenconverse-at-qualityimages.= biz|--/a--||--br--| |--a href=3D"http://qualityimages.biz" target=3D"_blank"--|qualityimages.biz|--/a= --||--br--| |--br--| |--br--| -----Original Message-----|--br--| |--/div--||--div class=3D"im"--|X-from: |--a href=3D"mailto:donald.gibbon-at-matcoinc.co= m"--|donald.gibbon-at-matcoinc.com|--/a--| [mailto:|--a href=3D"mailto:donald.gibbon-at-m= atcoinc.com"--|donald.gibbon-at-matcoinc.com|--/a--|]|--br--| Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 5:34 PM|--br--| To: |--a href=3D"mailto:kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz"--|kenconverse-at-qualityima= ges.biz|--/a--||--br--| |--/div--||--div class=3D"im"--|Subject: [Microscopy] FW: Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safet= y|--br--| |--br--| |--br--| |--br--| |--br--| ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -|--br--| The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: =C2=A0The Microscopy Society of Ame= rica|--br--| To =C2=A0Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- |--a href=3D"http://www.microscopy.com/Micr= oscopyListserver On-Line" target=3D"_blank"--|http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver|--b= r--| On-Line|--/a--| Help |--a href=3D"http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/= FAQ.html" target=3D"_blank"--|http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/= FAQ.html|--/a--||--br--| ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -|--br--| |--br--| |--br--| |--br--| |--br--| |--/div--|As a semi-professional ice cream maker, I'd like to second Wolfga= ng Muss's reference to the old-fashioned but utterly reliable and safe = method of using a hand-cranked ice cream freezer rather than any other opti= on. There are reasons why this works well, which, if ignored, explain why i= t doesn't work sometimes! Making ice cream is an exercise in heat trans= fer and crystal growth. The heat transfer surface is the metal wall of the = tub which is rotated by the crank. Counter-rotating inside the tube is a pa= ir of wooden paddles, keeping that surface clean and free of ice, constantl= y removing the freezing cream. The idea is to get a eutectic mixture of sal= t and ice on the outside, i.e., minimum possible temperature in this system= , dump in the cream and start cranking. Don't ever stop for even one se= cond. i.e., keep that surface clean, and in six-eight minutes your job will= be done. The idea is to maximize the number of crystals and minimize their= size. It is NOT a tedious process, !|--br--|
=C2=A0hardly enough to get winded.|--br--| |--br--| My most sought-after publication in my entire life was my paper on The Ther= modynamics of Homemade Ice Cream, published in the Journal Of Chemical Educ= ation. I still have the thermocouple-fitted ice cream freezer in which we m= ade many gallons of ice cream, doing the experimental work for this paper. = Somebody had to do it! And sticking your finger in the ice cream will not h= arm you at all!|--br--|
|--br--| Donald L. Gibbon|--br--| |--div class=3D"im"--||--br--| -----Original Message-----|--br--| X-from: |--a href=3D"mailto:W.Muss-at-salk.at"--|W.Muss-at-salk.at|--/a--| [mailto:|--a hre= f=3D"mailto:W.Muss-at-salk.at"--|W.Muss-at-salk.at|--/a--|]|--br--| Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 12:23 PM|--br--| To: Gibbon, Donald L.|--br--|
I agree that enjoying the meal and smaller portions probably are the key... As to the discussion on ice cream, well, I somehow (I keep asking myself why) ended up in south Florida, where it is usually never below about 60 degrees F...
While we are on the subject of food, though, since everyone on this list is scientifically minded, has anyone else found that they treat cooking like a science? My personal forte is baking, but the methods I use in the kitchen are very similar to methods used in the lab... After all, a recipe is merely a sustenance production protocol, right?
--Justin.
On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 7:25 AM, Stephane Nizet {nizets2-at-yahoo.com} wrote: } Dear Justin, } } I am happy that you enjoyed the french way-of-life. } I think that, rather the mental state, the amount eaten probably plays a critical role in weight gain. } Actually french enjoy tasteful meals because they eat for the pleasure, so they prefer to eat less but better. } The same comes with the beer between Belgium and Germany f.e.: the belgian beer comes in 25cl while the german in 0,5L flasks. } Eat slowly also helps the digestion. It is both a question of psychical and physical pleasure. } This makes me almost forget that I am not french. Well all the same... } } Stephane } } PS: why do we start a discussion about how to make ice-cream when there is -15°C outside!! } } } ----- Original Message ---- } From: "kraftpiano-at-gmail.com" {kraftpiano-at-gmail.com} } To: nizets2-at-yahoo.com } Sent: Wed, January 27, 2010 12:51:07 AM } Subject: [Microscopy] Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety } } } } } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of America } To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver } On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } I prefer the hand-cranked version, myself. Not only does it give more } direct tactile feedback on the overall thickness of the ice cream, but it } gives the baby (To me) cousins something to do that is out of the way of my } kitchen chaos on Thanksgiving! } } As for the health aspect, there was a study that I read within the last } three or four years (I can't remember anything specific) that said that the } largest contributor to weight gain when eating is the mental state of the } eater. I was discussing this with a colleague of mine and we came to the } conclusion that it must be true, based on the French. (My apologies at this } generalization, but I am basing my experience on the four incredible weeks I } spent wandering around the French countryside...) } } The French eat wonderfully decadent, flavorful, and rich foods, and drink } gallons of truly elegant wine. Neither me nor my colleague remembered } seeing any obese French people (We're sure they exist, but they don't seem } to be the norm as it seems in the US). We also experienced the wonderful } French culture of taking your time while eating, enjoying both the meal and } the company, not rushing through it. } } We could also come up with more French nationals who lived to respectable } old age than we could of any other nationality. } } I know that this is in no way a scientific observation, but it's still } enough to make me want to wander around rural France for the rest of my life } eating hand-churned ice cream... } } Great. Now I'm hungry. First time this list has done that to me... } } --Justin A. Kraft } Professional Lab Rat/High Energy Physics Server Monkey } Florida International University } Miami, FL } } } -- } "America believes in education; the average professor earns more money } in a year than a professional athlete earns in a whole week." Evan } Esar } } n Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 6:19 PM, |--kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz--| wrote: } } --| } --| } --| } --| } --| -------------------------------------------------------------------------= } --- } --| The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of Americ= } a } --| To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- } --| http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver } --| On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html } --| } --| -------------------------------------------------------------------------= } --- } --| } --| Don, } --| You're right! It's a dirty job, but somebody's got to do it. My wife an= } d } --| I got an electric ice cream maker as a wedding gift that we haven't used } --| nearly enough. My favorite recipe not only includes the heavy cream, but= } a } --| half dozen eggs. To die for... } --| } --| Of course the kill-joys will tell us that the heavy cream, the cholestero= } l } --| in the eggs and all the sugar will kill us, not to mention the environmen= } tal } --| effects of all the cattle and chickens, plus the inhumane conditions they } --| are kept in. } --| } --| I'll have another serving of that custard ice cream recipe, thank you. } --| } --| Ken Converse } --| owner } --| } --| QUALITY IMAGES } --| Servicing Scanning Electron Microscopes } --| Since 1981 } --| 474 So. Bridgton Rd. } --| Bridgton, ME 04009 } --| 207-647-4348 } --| Fax 207-647-2688 } --| kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz } --| qualityimages.biz } --| } --| } --| -----Original Message----- } --| X-from: donald.gibbon-at-matcoinc.com [mailto:donald.gibbon-at-matcoinc.com] } --| Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 5:34 PM } --| To: kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz } --| Subject: [Microscopy] FW: Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety } --| } --| } --| } --| } --| } --| -------------------------------------------------------------------------= } --- } --| The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of Americ= } a } --| To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- } --| http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver } --| On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html } --| } --| -------------------------------------------------------------------------= } --- } --| } --| } --| } --| } --| As a semi-professional ice cream maker, I'd like to second Wolfgang Muss'= } s } --| reference to the old-fashioned but utterly reliable and safe method of us= } ing } --| a hand-cranked ice cream freezer rather than any other option. There are } --| reasons why this works well, which, if ignored, explain why it doesn't wo= } rk } --| sometimes! Making ice cream is an exercise in heat transfer and crystal } --| growth. The heat transfer surface is the metal wall of the tub which is } --| rotated by the crank. Counter-rotating inside the tube is a pair of woode= } n } --| paddles, keeping that surface clean and free of ice, constantly removing = } the } --| freezing cream. The idea is to get a eutectic mixture of salt and ice on = } the } --| outside, i.e., minimum possible temperature in this system, dump in the } --| cream and start cranking. Don't ever stop for even one second. i.e., keep } --| that surface clean, and in six-eight minutes your job will be done. The i= } dea } --| is to maximize the number of crystals and minimize their size. It is NOT = } a } --| tedious process, ! } --| hardly enough to get winded. } --| } --| My most sought-after publication in my entire life was my paper on The } --| Thermodynamics of Homemade Ice Cream, published in the Journal Of Chemica= } l } --| Education. I still have the thermocouple-fitted ice cream freezer in whic= } h } --| we made many gallons of ice cream, doing the experimental work for this } --| paper. Somebody had to do it! And sticking your finger in the ice cream w= } ill } --| not harm you at all! } --| } --| Donald L. Gibbon } --| } --| -----Original Message----- } --| X-from: W.Muss-at-salk.at [mailto:W.Muss-at-salk.at] } --| Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 12:23 PM } --| To: Gibbon, Donald L. } --| Subject: [Microscopy] Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety } --| } --| } --| } --| } --| } --| -------------------------------------------------------------------------= } --- } --| The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of Americ= } a } --| To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- } --| http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver } --| On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html } --| } --| -------------------------------------------------------------------------= } --- } --| } --| Good morning, good afternoon, good evening - hopefully any somewhere will } --| apply, } --| hello, dear colleagues, } --| } --| Just to add my 2 =C3=83=C2=A2=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=A1=C3=82=C2=AC-cents (apo= } logize if the message became too long): } --| } --| Yes, we can discuss about children STICK THEIR FINGERS IN THE LIQUID } --| NITROGEN and other stuff.... in general, } --| since in EM we sometimes have to work with 'cruel' things and substances } --| (and others a little bit more often). } --| Cryogenics also CAN be hazardous (as --|hot|-- water is/can be), } depending on } --| how we are --|working with|-- it. } --| If we couldn't do that safe(ly) it necessarily / perhaps would have been } --| forbidden for a long time. } --| } --| There are a lot of sources on the web one can find concerning use and } --| misuse of e. g. liquid nitrogen: } --| for example: } --| } --| http://www.altair.org/hazard.html (DONT DIE ! Laboratory Hazards: Safety= } , } --| Prevention, First Aid, C 2001-2010) } --| } --| } --| http://www.reachoutmichigan.org/funexperiments/agesubject/lessons/nitroge= } n.html } --| ( "Fun experiments" website last updated 2003) } --| } --| } --| http://smb.slac.stanford.edu/users_guide/manual/Experiment_policies.html#= } SECTION00027000000000000000 } --| (describes hazards and proper handling procedures for work with liquid } --| nitrogen, 2010) } --| } --| http://stores.biochem.uiowa.edu/Pages/ln2msds.htm } --| ("old" but IMO "good" example for a US-Univ's Safety Data Sheet) } --| } --| } --| http://www.chaosscience.org.uk/dem/public_html//article.php?story=3D20031= } 216175107931 } --| (Liquid Nitrogen Risk Assessment, 16/12/03 ) } --| } --| Also, some Labs are questioning in advance for safety issues on the thing= } s } --| someone will bring into the Lab: } --| e.g. http://www.sbc.anl.gov/pdfs/hazard_assessment_form.pdf (take a look } --| for 'cryogens', Argonne Natl. Lab, SBC Hazard Assessment Form), perhaps j= } ust } --| to be on the safe side for their own staff people and Lab's interior. } --| } --| AND finally, YES, LN2-ingestion - to take a mouthfull of LN2 and blast it } --| off - only for the EXPERIENCED CAN BE a junky-funky trick, BUT - } --| on the other side - for the unexperienced (unfortunately also for the } --| 'careless' experienced I have to admit!) - it could be not only dangerous } --| but LIFE threatening: cf. } --| http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/reprint/105/1/121 } --| ( Benjamin Z. Koplewitz, et al.... Gastric Perforation Attributable to } --| Liquid Nitrogen Ingestion, } --| in: Pediatrics 2000;105;121-123, open Access) } --| } --| A similar situation has been reported on } --| http://www.darwinawards.com/personal/personal2000-25.html, } --| which eventually was --|awarded|-- with the DARWIN AWARD in 2000 } (=3D=3D--|cit:= } "The } --| Darwin Awards salute the improvement of the human genome by honoring thos= } e } --| who accidentally remove themselves from it..." end of cit.) } --| } --| I personally have no doubt that it IS possible (and I have done that for } --| demonstration of "Leidenfrost phenomenon" a lot of times way back...) to } --| place one or two fingers, eventually(and forsure) the whole hand into liq= } uid } --| nitrogen for 1-2 seconds, PROVIDED some necessary PREREQUISITES which - I= } N } --| ADVANCE - have to be theoretically explained and are to be met to/for tho= } se } --| --|trying|-- such an "adventure" and IMO only should be done in a SUPERVISED } --| situation. } --| } --| Despite (or better: BECAUSE) respecting all those "little" |--problem-maker= } s--| } --| in our daily work } --| (if this is not done by other staff members, I have to to do such work } --| literally by myself) I am not in a blue funk of perhaps desastrous result= } s } --| of using/handling all those substances like } --| OsO4 (hazard, toxic), p-phenylenediamine (pesticide, toxic), uranyl-aceta= } te } --| from stock powder (radioactive), cryogens (like LN2, precooled isobutane, } --| also Freon gas [some residual inventory] if the pressurized can will be u= } sed } --| inverted) and other substances/chemicals (mostly used in very small } --| quantities), not to forget all those "may be hazardous resins" out in the } --| dark... } --| } --| WHY I am NOT AFRAID/do not fear those: since I have learned - before } --| handling and using those - } --| WHAT the respective properties of materials/substances/fluids are, } --| HOW they have ( practically ) to be used safely, } --| WHAT the consequences eventually will be (personal and for others) if } --| handled unsafe, and } --| HOW to dispose of (remnants, by-products of reactions, etc.) properly. } --| } --| (as an example for awareness: read: } --| http://www.hull.ac.uk/chemstores/coshhadv.html (COSHH- Control of } --| Substances Hazardous to Health, Univ.Hull, UK: 'part of the U.K.'s CRIMI= } NAL } --| LAW' !) } --| } --| Anybody who has |--studied--| properties of chemicals etc., their } handling an= } d } --| use properly and correctly will know how to proceed with the use of mater= } ial } --| and substances we use in an EM-lab. If this has not be done, no one shoul= } d } --| do --|things|-- he never got explained and does not know about } consequences i= } n } --| case of misuse. } --| } --| There IMO is no need to disallow or eventually prohibit (necessary) actio= } ns } --| which to the unexperienced (perhaps) will be harmful, but to the experien= } ced } --| does not apply seriously. } --| So, last but not least: it is the responsibilty of the "experienced" to } --| teach the unexperienced... so you as the |--experienced--| decide } what can be } --| done/shown and what CANNOT be done /shown. } --| } --| Concerning: Ice-Cream-experiments with LN2, those perhaps are an } --| "interesting" demonstration for a new practical application but easily } --| can/could be safely substituted by |--old fashioned--| ice-cream-making (e.g } --| lowering the temperature of the fluids by using eg. the pot-freezer meth= } od: } --| the temperature of the ingredients is reduced by placing them inside a tu= } b } --| filled with ice and salt) Cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_cream . } --| } --| At the end: just only pointing to the long MSA thread on --|N2 gas-LN2|-- } --| starting May 2nd 2009 } --| Conc: [Microscopy] Nitrogen leak (JEOL 6701F SEM) } --| } --| } --| Regards, } --| Wolfgang MUSS } --| Head EM-Lab, Pathology } --| SALK-LKH (Gen. Hosp.) } --| SALZBURG Austria } --| } --| } --| } --| } --| --| -----Urspr=C3=83=C6=92=C3=82=C2=BCngliche Nachricht----- } --| --| Von: richard.ross-at-allisontransmission.com } --| --| [mailto:richard.ross-at-allisontransmission.com] } --| --| Gesendet: Dienstag, 26. J=C3=83=C6=92=C3=82=C2=A4nner 2010 14:57 } --| --| An: Mu=C3=83=C6=92=C3=85=C2=B8 Wolfgang } --| --| Betreff: [Microscopy] Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety [Ice-Cream made with } --| --| LN2, concerns about] } --| --| } --| --| } --| -------------------------------------------------------------------------= } - } --| --| The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of } --| America } --| --| To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- } --| http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver } --| --| On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html } --| --| } --| -------------------------------------------------------------------------= } --- } --| --| Way back when, Chuck Fiori used to put on a demo with LN2 at the LeHigh } --| SEM school. } --| Chuck wanted to show that sometimes its more hazardous to trap LN2 agains= } t } --| the body with protective gear than to give the liedenfrost effect room to } --| create its protective blanket of gas. If the LN2 was provided, he would } --| eventually take some into his mouth and blow 'smoke' rings. He told of a } --| time when he accidentally swallowed some of the LN2 and the resulting } --| stomach gas pressure caused him to black out, falling to the stage } --| unconscious. } --| Ultimately the excess pressure relieved itself as a belch and Chuck came } --| to. } --| Chuck certainly taught me things in ways that I remember! |-- } --| --| } --| --| =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= } =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DOriginal } --| Headers=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= } =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D } --| --| 1, 25 -- From richard.ross-at-allisontransmission.com Tue Jan 26 07:53:09 } --| 2010 } --| --| 1, 25 -- Received: from plmler2.mail.eds.com (plmler2.mail.eds.com[199.= } 228.142.72]) } --| --| 1, 25 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP } --| id o0QDr9dN015534 } --| --| 1, 25 -- for |--microscopy-at-microscopy.com--|; Tue, 26 Jan } 2010 07:53:0= } 9 } --| -0600 } --| --| 1, 25 -- Received: from plmlir1.mail.eds.com (plmlir1-2.mail.eds.com[19= } 9.228.142.131]) } --| --| 1, 25 -- by plmler2.mail.eds.com (8.14.2/8.13.8) with ESMTP id } --| o0QDr9vK015878 } --| --| 1, 25 -- for |--microscopy-at-microscopy.com--|; 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Tue, 26 Jan 2010 16:31:08 -0600 } --| 41, 25 -- Received: from valmail.na.valmont.com ([172.16.1.35]) by } --| valmailbh1.na.valmont.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); } --| 41, 25 -- Tue, 26 Jan 2010 16:31:10 -0600 } --| 41, 25 -- X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 } --| 41, 25 -- Content-class: urn:content-classes:message } --| 41, 25 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 } --| 41, 25 -- Content-Type: text/plain; } --| 41, 25 -- charset=3D"utf-8" } --| 41, 25 -- Subject: FW: [Microscopy] Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety } --| 41, 25 -- Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 16:30:53 -0600 } --| 41, 25 -- Message-ID: |-- } --| AE9049B5C6BD064BA3F0B94A1F985BA701C0271C-at-valmail.na.valmont.com--| } --| 41, 25 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: } --| 41, 25 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: } --| 41, 25 -- Thread-Topic: [Microscopy] Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety } --| 41, 25 -- Thread-Index: AcqerEInLpxwPY7hR82L8CQkUjJcMAAIjmRAAAIs39A=3D } --| 41, 25 -- From: "Gibbon, Donald L." |--donald.gibbon-at-matcoinc.com--| } --| 41, 25 -- To: |--Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com--| } --| 41, 25 -- X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Jan 2010 22:31:10.0693 (UTC) } --| FILETIME=3D[42A7C950:01CA9ED7] } --| 41, 25 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit } --| 41, 25 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by ns.microscopy.comi= } d o0QMVCO4023527 } --| =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= } =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DEnd of - } --| Headers=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= } =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D } --| } --| } --| } --| } --| =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= } =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DOriginal } --| Headers=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= } =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D } --| 55, 28 -- From kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz Tue Jan 26 17:14:59 2010 } --| 55, 28 -- Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ( } --| cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.123]) } --| 55, 28 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP } --| id o0QNExA5007260 } --| 55, 28 -- for |--microscopy-at-microscopy.com--|; 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Tue, 26 Jan 2010 23:14:58 +0000 } --| 55, 28 -- From: "Ken Converse" |--kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz--| } --| 55, 28 -- To: |--donald.gibbon-at-matcoinc.com--|, "MSA Listserver" |-- } --| microscopy-at-microscopy.com--| } --| 55, 28 -- Subject: RE: [Microscopy] FW: Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety } --| 55, 28 -- Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 18:14:48 -0500 } --| 55, 28 -- Message-ID: |--AAB114FE7FFF4BE1BA400B71BE8028D9-at-Ken--| } --| 55, 28 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 } --| 55, 28 -- Content-Type: text/plain; } --| 55, 28 -- charset=3D"UTF-8" } --| 55, 28 -- X-Priority: 3 (Normal) } --| 55, 28 -- X-MSMail-Priority: Normal } --| 55, 28 -- X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6838 } --| 55, 28 -- Thread-Index: Acqe16lb6biq5MkVRICanNIV5gMa2wABNBkg } --| 55, 28 -- In-Reply-To: |--201001262233.o0QMXqLY027337-at-ns.microscopy.com--| } --| 55, 28 -- Importance: Normal } --| 55, 28 -- X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 } --| 55, 28 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit } --| 55, 28 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by } --| ns.microscopy.com id o0QNExA5007260 } --| =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= } =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DEnd of - } --| Headers=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= } =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D } --| } } } } --=20 } "America believes in education; the average professor earns more money in a } year than a professional athlete earns in a whole week." Evan Esar } } --0016e6d78426304381047e19d3a8 } Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 } Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable } } I prefer the hand-cranked version, myself. =C2=A0Not only does it give more= } direct tactile feedback on the overall thickness of the ice cream, but it = } gives the baby (To me) cousins something to do that is out of the way of my= } kitchen chaos on Thanksgiving!|--div--| } |--br--||--/div--||--div--|As for the health aspect, there was a study } that I read with= } in the last three or four years (I can't remember anything specific) th= } at said that the largest contributor to weight gain when eating is the ment= } al state of the eater. =C2=A0I was discussing this with a colleague of mine= } and we came to the conclusion that it must be true, based on the French. = } =C2=A0(My apologies at this generalization, but I am basing my experience o= } n the four incredible weeks I spent wandering around the French countryside= } ...) =C2=A0|--/div--| } |--div--||--br--||--/div--||--div--|The French eat wonderfully } decadent, flavorful, and ric= } h foods, and drink gallons of truly elegant wine. =C2=A0Neither me nor my c= } olleague remembered seeing any obese French people (We're sure they exi= } st, but they don't seem to be the norm as it seems in the US). =C2=A0We= } also experienced the wonderful French culture of taking your time while ea= } ting, enjoying both the meal and the company, not rushing through it.|--/div--| } |--div--||--br--||--/div--||--div--|We could also come up with more } French nationals who li= } ved to respectable old age than we could of any other } nationality.|--/div--||--di= } v--||--br--||--/div--||--div--|I know that this is in no way a } scientific observation, bu= } t it's still enough to make me want to wander around rural France for t= } he rest of my life eating hand-churned ice cream...|--/div--| } |--div--||--br--||--/div--||--div--|Great. =C2=A0Now I'm hungry. } =C2=A0First time this = } list has done that to } me...|--/div--||--div--||--br--||--/div--||--div--|--Justin A. } Kraft|--/div= } --||--div--|Professional Lab Rat/High Energy Physics Server } Monkey|--/div--||--div--|Flor= } ida International University|--/div--| } |--div--|Miami, FL|--br--||--br--||--div class=3D"gmail_quote"--|On } Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 6:= } 19 PM, |--span dir=3D"ltr"--| {|--a } href=3D"mailto:kenconverse-at-qualityimages.b= } iz"--|kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz|--/a--|} |--/span--| } wrote:|--br--||--blockquote clas= } s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pad= } ding-left:1ex;"--| } |--div class=3D"im"--||--br--| } |--br--| } |--br--| } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= } -|--br--| } The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: =C2=A0The Microscopy Society of Ame= } rica|--br--| } To =C2=A0Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- |--a href=3D"http://www.microscopy.com/Micr= } oscopyListserver } On-Line" target=3D"_blank"--|http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver|--b= } r--| } On-Line|--/a--| Help |--a } href=3D"http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/= } FAQ.html" target=3D"_blank"--|http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/= } FAQ.html|--/a--||--br--| } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= } -|--br--| } |--br--| } |--/div--|Don,|--br--| } You're right! =C2=A0It's a dirty job, but somebody's got to do = } it. =C2=A0My wife and I got an electric ice cream maker as a wedding gift t= } hat we haven't used nearly enough. =C2=A0My favorite recipe not only in= } cludes the heavy cream, but a half dozen eggs. =C2=A0To die for...|--br--| } } |--br--| } Of course the kill-joys will tell us that the heavy cream, the cholesterol = } in the eggs and all the sugar will kill us, not to mention the environmenta= } l effects of all the cattle and chickens, plus the inhumane conditions they= } are kept in.|--br--| } } |--br--| } I'll have another serving of that custard ice cream recipe, thank you.|--= } br--| } |--div class=3D"im"--||--br--| } Ken Converse|--br--| } owner|--br--| } |--br--| } QUALITY IMAGES|--br--| } Servicing Scanning Electron Microscopes|--br--| } Since 1981|--br--| } 474 So. Bridgton Rd.|--br--| } Bridgton, ME =C2=A004009|--br--| } 207-647-4348|--br--| } Fax 207-647-2688|--br--| } |--a href=3D"mailto:kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz"--|kenconverse-at-qualityimages.= } biz|--/a--||--br--| } |--a href=3D"http://qualityimages.biz" } target=3D"_blank"--|qualityimages.biz|--/a= } --||--br--| } |--br--| } |--br--| } -----Original Message-----|--br--| } |--/div--||--div class=3D"im"--|X-from: |--a } href=3D"mailto:donald.gibbon-at-matcoinc.co= } m"--|donald.gibbon-at-matcoinc.com|--/a--| [mailto:|--a } href=3D"mailto:donald.gibbon-at-m= } atcoinc.com"--|donald.gibbon-at-matcoinc.com|--/a--|]|--br--| } Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 5:34 PM|--br--| } To: |--a href=3D"mailto:kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz"--|kenconverse-at-qualityima= } ges.biz|--/a--||--br--| } |--/div--||--div class=3D"im"--|Subject: [Microscopy] FW: Re: Liquid } Nitrogen Safet= } y|--br--| } |--br--| } |--br--| } |--br--| } |--br--| } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= } -|--br--| } The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: =C2=A0The Microscopy Society of Ame= } rica|--br--| } To =C2=A0Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- |--a href=3D"http://www.microscopy.com/Micr= } oscopyListserver } On-Line" target=3D"_blank"--|http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver|--b= } r--| } On-Line|--/a--| Help |--a } href=3D"http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/= } FAQ.html" target=3D"_blank"--|http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/= } FAQ.html|--/a--||--br--| } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= } -|--br--| } |--br--| } |--br--| } |--br--| } |--br--| } |--/div--|As a semi-professional ice cream maker, I'd like to second Wolfga= } ng Muss's reference to the old-fashioned but utterly reliable and safe = } method of using a hand-cranked ice cream freezer rather than any other opti= } on. There are reasons why this works well, which, if ignored, explain why i= } t doesn't work sometimes! Making ice cream is an exercise in heat trans= } fer and crystal growth. The heat transfer surface is the metal wall of the = } tub which is rotated by the crank. Counter-rotating inside the tube is a pa= } ir of wooden paddles, keeping that surface clean and free of ice, constantl= } y removing the freezing cream. The idea is to get a eutectic mixture of sal= } t and ice on the outside, i.e., minimum possible temperature in this system= } , dump in the cream and start cranking. Don't ever stop for even one se= } cond. i.e., keep that surface clean, and in six-eight minutes your job will= } be done. The idea is to maximize the number of crystals and minimize their= } size. It is NOT a tedious process, !|--br--| } } =C2=A0hardly enough to get winded.|--br--| } |--br--| } My most sought-after publication in my entire life was my paper on The Ther= } modynamics of Homemade Ice Cream, published in the Journal Of Chemical Educ= } ation. I still have the thermocouple-fitted ice cream freezer in which we m= } ade many gallons of ice cream, doing the experimental work for this paper. = } Somebody had to do it! And sticking your finger in the ice cream will not h= } arm you at all!|--br--| } } |--br--| } Donald L. Gibbon|--br--| } |--div class=3D"im"--||--br--| } -----Original Message-----|--br--| } X-from: |--a href=3D"mailto:W.Muss-at-salk.at"--|W.Muss-at-salk.at|--/a--| } [mailto:|--a hre= } f=3D"mailto:W.Muss-at-salk.at"--|W.Muss-at-salk.at|--/a--|]|--br--| } Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 12:23 PM|--br--| } To: Gibbon, Donald L.|--br--| } Subject: [Microscopy] Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety|--br--| } |--br--| } |--br--| } |--br--| } |--br--| } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= } -|--br--| } The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: =C2=A0The Microscopy Society of Ame= } rica|--br--| } To =C2=A0Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- |--a href=3D"http://www.microscopy.com/Micr= } oscopyListserver } On-Line" target=3D"_blank"--|http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver|--b= } r--| } On-Line|--/a--| Help |--a } href=3D"http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/= } FAQ.html" target=3D"_blank"--|http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/= } FAQ.html|--/a--||--br--| } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= } -|--br--| } |--br--| } |--/div--|Good morning, good afternoon, good evening - hopefully any somewhere = } will apply,|--br--| } hello, dear colleagues,|--br--| } |--br--| } Just to add my 2 =C3=83=C2=A2=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=A1=C3=82=C2=AC-cents (apolo= } gize if the message became too long):|--br--| } |--br--| } Yes, we can discuss about children STICK THEIR FINGERS IN THE LIQUID NITROG= } EN and other stuff.... =C2=A0 in general,|--br--| } since in EM we sometimes have to work with 'cruel' things and subst= } ances (and others a little bit more often).|--br--| } Cryogenics also CAN be hazardous (as } hot { water is/can be), dependin= } g on how we are } working with { it.|--br--| } If we couldn't do that safe(ly) it necessarily / perhaps would have bee= } n forbidden for a long time.|--br--| } |--br--| } There are a lot of sources on the web one can find concerning use and misus= } e of e. g. liquid nitrogen:|--br--| } for example:|--br--| } |--br--| } |--a href=3D"http://www.altair.org/hazard.html" target=3D"_blank"--|http://www.= } altair.org/hazard.html|--/a--| =C2=A0(DONT DIE ! Laboratory Hazards: Safety, Pr= } evention, First Aid, C 2001-2010)|--br--| } |--br--| } |--a href=3D"http://www.reachoutmichigan.org/funexperiments/agesubject/lesson= } s/nitrogen.html" target=3D"_blank"--|http://www.reachoutmichigan.org/funexper= } iments/agesubject/lessons/nitrogen.html|--/a--||--br--| } ( "Fun experiments" website last updated 2003)|--br--| } |--br--| } |--a href=3D"http://smb.slac.stanford.edu/users_guide/manual/Experiment_polic= } ies.html#SECTION00027000000000000000" target=3D"_blank"--|http://smb.slac.sta= } nford.edu/users_guide/manual/Experiment_policies.html#SECTION00027000000000= } 000000|--/a--||--br--| } } (describes hazards and proper handling procedures for work with liquid nitr= } ogen, 2010)|--br--| } |--br--| } |--a href=3D"http://stores.biochem.uiowa.edu/Pages/ln2msds.htm" target=3D"_bl= } ank"--|http://stores.biochem.uiowa.edu/Pages/ln2msds.htm|--/a--||--br--| } ("old" but IMO "good" example for a US-Univ's Safet= } y Data Sheet)|--br--| } |--br--| } |--a href=3D"http://www.chaosscience.org.uk/dem/public_html//article.php?stor= } y=3D20031216175107931" target=3D"_blank"--|http://www.chaosscience.org.uk/dem= } /public_html//article.php?story=3D20031216175107931|--/a--||--br--| } (Liquid Nitrogen Risk Assessment, 16/12/03 )|--br--| } |--br--| } Also, some Labs are questioning in advance for safety issues on the things = } someone will bring into the Lab:|--br--| } e.g. |--a href=3D"http://www.sbc.anl.gov/pdfs/hazard_assessment_form.pdf" tar= } get=3D"_blank"--|http://www.sbc.anl.gov/pdfs/hazard_assessment_form.pdf|--/a--| } = } =C2=A0(take a look for 'cryogens', Argonne Natl. Lab, SBC Hazard As= } sessment Form), perhaps just to be on the safe side for their own staff peo= } ple and Lab's interior.|--br--| } } |--br--| } AND finally, YES, LN2-ingestion - to take a mouthfull of LN2 and blast it o= } ff - only for the EXPERIENCED CAN BE a junky-funky trick, BUT -|--br--| } on the other side - for the unexperienced (unfortunately also for the '= } careless' experienced I have to admit!) - it could be not only dangerou= } s but LIFE threatening: =C2=A0cf.|--br--| } |--a href=3D"http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/reprint/105/1/121" tar= } get=3D"_blank"--|http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/reprint/105/1/121|--= } /a--||--br--| } ( Benjamin Z. Koplewitz, et al.... =C2=A0Gastric Perforation Attributable t= } o Liquid Nitrogen Ingestion,|--br--| } in: =C2=A0Pediatrics 2000;105;121-123, open Access)|--br--| } |--br--| } A similar situation has been reported on |--a href=3D"http://www.darwinawards= } .com/personal/personal2000-25.html" target=3D"_blank"--|http://www.darwinawar= } ds.com/personal/personal2000-25.html|--/a--|,|--br--| } which eventually was } awarded { with the DARWIN AWARD in 2000 (=3D=3D&= } gt;cit: "The Darwin Awards salute the improvement of the human genome = } by honoring those who accidentally remove themselves from it..." end o= } f cit.)|--br--| } } |--br--| } I personally have no doubt that it IS possible (and I have done that for de= } monstration of "Leidenfrost phenomenon" a lot of times way back..= } .) to place one or two fingers, eventually(and forsure) the whole hand into= } liquid nitrogen for 1-2 seconds, PROVIDED some necessary PREREQUISITES whi= } ch - IN ADVANCE - have to be theoretically explained and are to be met to/f= } or those } trying { such an "adventure" and IMO only should b= } e done in a SUPERVISED situation.|--br--| } } |--br--| } Despite (or better: BECAUSE) respecting all those "little" {pr= } oblem-makers} in our daily work|--br--| } (if this is not done by other staff members, I have to to do such work lite= } rally by myself) I am not in a blue funk of perhaps desastrous results of u= } sing/handling all those substances like|--br--| } OsO4 (hazard, toxic), p-phenylenediamine (pesticide, toxic), uranyl-acetate= } from stock powder (radioactive), cryogens (like LN2, precooled isobutane, = } also Freon gas [some residual inventory] if the pressurized can will be use= } d inverted) and other substances/chemicals (mostly used in very small quant= } ities), not to forget all those "may be hazardous resins" out in = } the dark...|--br--| } } |--br--| } WHY I am NOT AFRAID/do not fear those: =C2=A0since I have learned - before = } handling and using those -|--br--| } WHAT the respective properties of materials/substances/fluids are,|--br--| } HOW they have ( practically ) to be used safely,|--br--| } WHAT the consequences eventually will be (personal and for others) if handl= } ed unsafe, and|--br--| } HOW to dispose of (remnants, by-products of reactions, etc.) properly.|--br--| } |--br--| } (as an example for awareness: read: =C2=A0|--a href=3D"http://www.hull.ac.uk/= } chemstores/coshhadv.html" target=3D"_blank"--|http://www.hull.ac.uk/chemstore= } s/coshhadv.html|--/a--| (COSHH- Control of Substances Hazardous to Health, Univ= } .Hull, UK: =C2=A0'part of the U.K.'s CRIMINAL LAW' !)|--br--| } } |--br--| } Anybody who has {studied} properties of chemicals etc., their handlin= } g and use properly and correctly will know how to proceed with the use of m= } aterial and substances we use in an EM-lab. If this has not be done, no one= } should do } things { he never got explained and does not know about co= } nsequences in case of misuse.|--br--| } } |--br--| } There IMO is no need to disallow or eventually prohibit (necessary) actions= } which to the unexperienced (perhaps) will be harmful, but to the experienc= } ed does not apply seriously.|--br--| } So, last but not least: it is the responsibilty of the "experienced&qu= } ot; to teach the unexperienced... so you as the {experienced} decide = } what can be done/shown and what CANNOT be done /shown.|--br--| } |--br--| } Concerning: Ice-Cream-experiments with LN2, those perhaps are an "inte= } resting" demonstration for a new practical application but easily can/= } could be safely substituted by {old fashioned} ice-cream-making (e.g = } lowering the temperature of the fluids by using eg. the =C2=A0pot-freezer m= } ethod: the temperature of the ingredients is reduced by placing them inside= } a tub filled with ice and salt) Cf. |--a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wik= } i/Ice_cream" target=3D"_blank"--|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_cream|--/a--| } .= } |--br--| } } |--br--| } At the end: just only pointing to the long MSA thread on } N2 gas-LN2 {= } =C2=A0 starting May 2nd 2009|--br--| } Conc: [Microscopy] Nitrogen leak (JEOL 6701F SEM)|--br--| } |--br--| } |--br--| } Regards,|--br--| } Wolfgang MUSS|--br--| } Head EM-Lab, Pathology|--br--| } SALK-LKH (Gen. Hosp.)|--br--| } SALZBURG Austria|--br--| } |--br--| } |--br--| } |--br--| } |--br--| } } -----Urspr=C3=83=C6=92=C3=82=C2=BCngliche Nachricht-----|--br--| } } Von: |--a href=3D"mailto:richard.ross-at-allisontransmission.com"--|richard.r= } oss-at-allisontransmission.com|--/a--||--br--| } } [mailto:|--a href=3D"mailto:richard.ross-at-allisontransmission.com"--|richar= } d.ross-at-allisontransmission.com|--/a--|]|--br--| } } Gesendet: Dienstag, 26. J=C3=83=C6=92=C3=82=C2=A4nner 2010 14:57|--br--| } } An: Mu=C3=83=C6=92=C3=85=C2=B8 Wolfgang|--br--| } } Betreff: [Microscopy] Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety [Ice-Cream made with|--= } br--| } } LN2, concerns about]|--br--| } |--div class=3D"im"--|} |--br--| } } ----------------------------------------------------------------------= } ----|--br--| } } The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: =C2=A0The Microscopy Society o= } f America|--br--| } } To =C2=A0Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- |--a href=3D"http://www.microscopy.com= } /MicroscopyListserver" target=3D"_blank"--|http://www.microscopy.com/Microsco= } pyListserver|--/a--||--br--| } } On-Line Help |--a href=3D"http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver= } /FAQ.html" target=3D"_blank"--|http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver= } /FAQ.html|--/a--||--br--| } } ----------------------------------------------------------------------= } ------|--br--| } |--/div--|} Way back when, Chuck Fiori used to put on a demo with LN2 at the= } LeHigh SEM school.|--br--| } Chuck wanted to show that sometimes its more hazardous to trap LN2 against = } the body with protective gear than to give the liedenfrost effect room to c= } reate its protective blanket of gas. If the LN2 was provided, he would even= } tually take some into his mouth and blow 'smoke' rings. He told of = } a time when he accidentally swallowed some of the LN2 and the resulting sto= } mach gas pressure caused him to black out, falling to the stage unconscious= } .|--br--| } } Ultimately the excess pressure relieved itself as a belch and Chuck came to= } .|--br--| } Chuck certainly taught me things in ways that I remember! {|--br--| } } |--br--| } } =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= } =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DOriginal Headers=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= } =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D|--br--| } } 1, 25 -- From |--a href=3D"mailto:richard.ross-at-allisontransmission.com"--|= } richard.ross-at-allisontransmission.com|--/a--| Tue Jan 26 07:53:09 2010|--br--| } } 1, 25 -- Received: from |--a href=3D"http://plmler2.mail.eds.com" target= } =3D"_blank"--|plmler2.mail.eds.com|--/a--| (|--a } href=3D"http://plmler2.mail.eds.co= } m" target=3D"_blank"--|plmler2.mail.eds.com|--/a--| [199.228.142.72])|--br--| } } 1, 25 -- =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0by |--a href=3D"http://ns.microscopy.com" t= } arget=3D"_blank"--|ns.microscopy.com|--/a--| (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) } with ESMTP= } id o0QDr9dN015534|--br--| } } 1, 25 -- =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0for {|--a href=3D"mailto:microscopy-at-micr= } oscopy.com"--|microscopy-at-microscopy.com|--/a--|} ; 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Tue, 26 Jan 2010 23= } :14:58 +0000|--br--| } 55, 28 -- From: "Ken Converse" {|--a href=3D"mailto:kenconverse-at-= } qualityimages.biz"--|kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz|--/a--|} |--br--| } 55, 28 -- To: {|--a href=3D"mailto:donald.gibbon-at-matcoinc.com"--|donald.gibb= } on-at-matcoinc.com|--/a--|} , "MSA Listserver" {|--a } href=3D"mailto:m= } icroscopy-at-microscopy.com"--|microscopy-at-microscopy.com|--/a--|} |--br--| } 55, 28 -- Subject: RE: [Microscopy] FW: =C2=A0Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety|--br= } --| } 55, 28 -- Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 18:14:48 -0500|--br--| } 55, 28 -- Message-ID: {AAB114FE7FFF4BE1BA400B71BE8028D9-at-Ken} |--br--| } 55, 28 -- MIME-Version: 1.0|--br--| } 55, 28 -- Content-Type: text/plain;|--br--| } 55, 28 -- =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 charset=3D"UTF-8"|--br--| } 55, 28 -- X-Priority: 3 (Normal)|--br--| } 55, 28 -- X-MSMail-Priority: Normal|--br--| } 55, 28 -- X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6838|--br--| } 55, 28 -- Thread-Index: Acqe16lb6biq5MkVRICanNIV5gMa2wABNBkg|--br--| } 55, 28 -- In-Reply-To: {|--a href=3D"mailto:201001262233.o0QMXqLY027337-at-ns= } .microscopy.com"--|201001262233.o0QMXqLY027337-at-ns.microscopy.com|--/a--|} |--br--| } 55, 28 -- Importance: Normal|--br--| } 55, 28 -- X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579|--br--| } 55, 28 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit|--br--| } 55, 28 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by |--a href=3D= } "http://ns.microscopy.com" } target=3D"_blank"--|ns.microscopy.com|--/a--| id o0QNE= } xA5007260|--br--| } =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= } =3D=3D=3D=3D=3DEnd of - Headers=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= } =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D|--br--| } |--/blockquote--||--/div--||--br--||--br clear=3D"all"--||--br--|-- } |--br--|"America believes = } in education; the average professor earns more money in a year than a profe= } ssional athlete earns in a whole week." Evan Esar|--br--| } |--/div--| } } --0016e6d78426304381047e19d3a8-- } } ==============================Original Headers============================== } 33, 32 -- From kraftpiano-at-gmail.com Tue Jan 26 17:41:32 2010 } 33, 32 -- Received: from mail-ew0-f215.google.com } (mail-ew0-f215.google.com [209.85.219.215]) } 33, 32 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with } ESMTP id o0QNfV8e022801 } 33, 32 -- for |--microscopy-at-microscopy.com--|; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 } 17:41:31 -0600 } 33, 32 -- Received: by ewy7 with SMTP id 7so3692822ewy.10 } 33, 32 -- for |--microscopy-at-microscopy.com--|; Tue, 26 Jan } 2010 15:41:30 -0800 (PST) } 33, 32 -- DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; } 33, 32 -- d=gmail.com; s=gamma; } 33, 32 -- } h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references } 33, 32 -- :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; } 33, 32 -- bh=hjcZ4diAhMZXOVj+BKRH5TiaY2b+mMLhtPxd7AZWGY0=; } 33, 32 -- } b=X8oGzX+4r6Y0I3+lqm8CxtEQ8YB6sAxFHlfHnZANAyPCIhULq8+I20hYJjBpj40Mrp } 33, 32 -- } 3/GzuFj8LxRayS3m9Gr0DBQTu4TauoQxxZ3NhrVmxc68dSr5EIoDnSx1yncMpHEtd9aA } 33, 32 -- 2MYV5Zz5xviI3MkUU80VwGxrPMLeVIzkO2F7M= } 33, 32 -- DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; } 33, 32 -- d=gmail.com; s=gamma; } 33, 32 -- } h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to } 33, 32 -- :content-type; } 33, 32 -- } b=ABnbn3QuY+ShSOFKi7Kmu3zlvkggGeDtNnVjmCu/mMbfWPY+ESrrfLIYz1ZlIVjOjc } 33, 32 -- } 212eEqgLzWnOrNgvsBR4L/FW2Z9t8wRhjVtOGYHUzzeo/FWXhU02UpK+CGsqgGt6dvqF } 33, 32 -- q9thvhIZJM/MXNAdTcWg8VvJUonixy5uOUOAw= } 33, 32 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 } 33, 32 -- Received: by 10.216.90.15 with SMTP id } d15mr3300426wef.219.1264549289279; Tue, } 33, 32 -- 26 Jan 2010 15:41:29 -0800 (PST) } 33, 32 -- In-Reply-To: |--201001262319.o0QNJjqO015608-at-ns.microscopy.com--| } 33, 32 -- References: |--201001262319.o0QNJjqO015608-at-ns.microscopy.com--| } 33, 32 -- Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 18:41:29 -0500 } 33, 32 -- Message-ID: } |--25e2b0d21001261541y15f2fd1ck741d0b0593fbe3d6-at-mail.gmail.com--| } 33, 32 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] RE: FW: Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety } 33, 32 -- From: Justin Kraft |--kraftpiano-at-gmail.com--| } 33, 32 -- To: kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz, microscopy-at-microscopy.com } 33, 32 -- Content-Type: multipart/alternative; } boundary=0016e6d78426304381047e19d3a8 } ==============================End of - Headers============================== } } ==============================Original Headers============================== } 35, 29 -- From kraftpiano-at-gmail.com Tue Jan 26 17:44:12 2010 } 35, 29 -- Received: from ey-out-1920.google.com (ey-out-1920.google.com [74.125.78.150]) } 35, 29 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0QNiBa8022871 } 35, 29 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 17:44:12 -0600 } 35, 29 -- Received: by ey-out-1920.google.com with SMTP id 26so1197295eyw.10 } 35, 29 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 15:44:11 -0800 (PST) } 35, 29 -- DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; } 35, 29 -- d=gmail.com; s=gamma; } 35, 29 -- h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject } 35, 29 -- :from:to:content-type; } 35, 29 -- bh=eOX8dVOyLNkP4Js4Zlbxn2Cy+IjLmAzWZx4qD3BrxLo=; } 35, 29 -- b=pKc56Ma3HBVtojU1Q8/PzdZMgYMtZ0ElI4E4JBZiofU58ARAnEs9XK/rZmtwKYqp3u } 35, 29 -- N9kv331SwOWN8HOoYWaJlRqXlKtIJQoTW8yhelkXwusiwE+LfZylBZ2ACLI9NUuYH2M4 } 35, 29 -- /CALs+BtOoFwtd+kmrRZcynlEDhbk68VUmHBM= } 35, 29 -- DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; } 35, 29 -- d=gmail.com; s=gamma; } 35, 29 -- h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; } 35, 29 -- b=UCzNrhMjaRWaR4JOTyLSnXRgCuzfNz2rIgHl15NYgtGF1mkmuAXuen/fa3VaYEBLPE } 35, 29 -- fOJLiBSfmOB4Ur17kOB968hSoF/nRRhqPFcvpGa/MtZQwlf6jDiydTZSTYhEIve/tw1s } 35, 29 -- DbWXIw4TM1n5nTVAZDKmLwddVZOC8zGSh9FAU= } 35, 29 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 } 35, 29 -- Received: by 10.216.90.79 with SMTP id d57mr801926wef.117.1264549450253; Tue, } 35, 29 -- 26 Jan 2010 15:44:10 -0800 (PST) } 35, 29 -- Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 18:44:10 -0500 } 35, 29 -- Message-ID: {25e2b0d21001261544n46faf4aetcba1f7617163a8d3-at-mail.gmail.com} } 35, 29 -- Subject: Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety } 35, 29 -- From: Justin Kraft {kraftpiano-at-gmail.com} } 35, 29 -- To: microscopy-at-microscopy.com } 35, 29 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 } ==============================End of - Headers============================== } } } } }
-- "America believes in education; the average professor earns more money in a year than a professional athlete earns in a whole week." Evan Esar
This Question/Comment was submitted to the Microscopy Listserver using the WWW based Form at http://www.microscopy.com/MLFormMail.html --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Remember this posting is most likely not from a Subscriber, so when replying please copy both eldesouky.ammar-at-ars.usda.gov as well as the MIcroscopy Listserver ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: Hi A former student of mine, now an Assoc. Prof. at Cairo Univ. wants to attend a workshop on TEM-use and sample preparations in the USA or Europe. Does anyone have info about such a workshop in the near future. Thanks E. Ammar
Tell your student to check out the EMBO web site for a course that will take place in Oslo, Norway this year (run by Norbert Roos). The course covers basic specimen preparation, use of resins, cryosectioning, immunocytochemistry and the application of stereological methods. It is unique in many respects - students can bring their own specimens and for most participants the course is free. However, acceptance onto the course is competitive.
Regards,
Paul Webster House Ear Institute 2100 W 3rd St Los Angeles CA 90057
-----Original Message----- X-from: eldesouky.ammar-at-ars.usda.gov [mailto:eldesouky.ammar-at-ars.usda.gov] Sent: Wed 1/27/2010 6:54 AM To: Webster, Paul
This Question/Comment was submitted to the Microscopy Listserver using the WWW based Form at http://www.microscopy.com/MLFormMail.html --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Remember this posting is most likely not from a Subscriber, so when replying please copy both eldesouky.ammar-at-ars.usda.gov as well as the MIcroscopy Listserver ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: Hi A former student of mine, now an Assoc. Prof. at Cairo Univ. wants to attend a workshop on TEM-use and sample preparations in the USA or Europe. Does anyone have info about such a workshop in the near future. Thanks E. Ammar
You are right about the killjoys, but did you ever consider that:
1. The Japanese eat very little fat and suffer fewer heart attacks than the English and Americans. 2. The mexicans eat a lot of fat and suffer fewer heart attacks than the English and Americans. 3. The Chinese drink very little red wine and suffer fewer heart attacks than the English and Americans. 4. The Italians drik a lot of red wine and suffer fewer heart attacks than the English and Americans. CONCLUSION Eat and drink what you like. Speaking English is apparently what kills you!*
*stolen from Anaspec Info, Issue 59/09, Fall 2009, Gauteng, South Africa.
Ron Anderson
kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz wrote: } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of America } To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver } On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } Don, } You're right! It's a dirty job, but somebody's got to do it. My wife and I got an electric ice cream maker as a wedding gift that we haven't used nearly enough. My favorite recipe not only includes the heavy cream, but a half dozen eggs. To die for... } } Of course the kill-joys will tell us that the heavy cream, the cholesterol in the eggs and all the sugar will kill us, not to mention the environmental effects of all the cattle and chickens, plus the inhumane conditions they are kept in. } } I'll have another serving of that custard ice cream recipe, thank you. } } Ken Converse } owner } } QUALITY IMAGES } Servicing Scanning Electron Microscopes } Since 1981 } 474 So. Bridgton Rd. } Bridgton, ME 04009 } 207-647-4348 } Fax 207-647-2688 } kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz } qualityimages.biz } } } -----Original Message----- } X-from: donald.gibbon-at-matcoinc.com [mailto:donald.gibbon-at-matcoinc.com] } Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 5:34 PM } To: kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz } Subject: [Microscopy] FW: Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety } } } } } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of America } To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver } On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } } } } As a semi-professional ice cream maker, I'd like to second Wolfgang Muss's reference to the old-fashioned but utterly reliable and safe method of using a hand-cranked ice cream freezer rather than any other option. There are reasons why this works well, which, if ignored, explain why it doesn't work sometimes! Making ice cream is an exercise in heat transfer and crystal growth. The heat transfer surface is the metal wall of the tub which is rotated by the crank. Counter-rotating inside the tube is a pair of wooden paddles, keeping that surface clean and free of ice, constantly removing the freezing cream. The idea is to get a eutectic mixture of salt and ice on the outside, i.e., minimum possible temperature in this system, dump in the cream and start cranking. Don't ever stop for even one second. i.e., keep that surface clean, and in six-eight minutes your job will be done. The idea is to maximize the number of crystals and minimize their size. It is NOT a tedious process, ! } hardly enough to get winded. } } My most sought-after publication in my entire life was my paper on The Thermodynamics of Homemade Ice Cream, published in the Journal Of Chemical Education. I still have the thermocouple-fitted ice cream freezer in which we made many gallons of ice cream, doing the experimental work for this paper. Somebody had to do it! And sticking your finger in the ice cream will not harm you at all! } } Donald L. Gibbon } } -----Original Message----- } X-from: W.Muss-at-salk.at [mailto:W.Muss-at-salk.at] } Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 12:23 PM } To: Gibbon, Donald L. } Subject: [Microscopy] Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety } } } } } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of America } To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver } On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } Good morning, good afternoon, good evening - hopefully any somewhere will apply, } hello, dear colleagues, } } Just to add my 2 €-cents (apologize if the message became too long): } } Yes, we can discuss about children STICK THEIR FINGERS IN THE LIQUID NITROGEN and other stuff.... in general, } since in EM we sometimes have to work with 'cruel' things and substances (and others a little bit more often). } Cryogenics also CAN be hazardous (as } hot { water is/can be), depending on how we are } working with { it. } If we couldn't do that safe(ly) it necessarily / perhaps would have been forbidden for a long time. } } There are a lot of sources on the web one can find concerning use and misuse of e. g. liquid nitrogen: } for example: } } http://www.altair.org/hazard.html (DONT DIE ! Laboratory Hazards: Safety, Prevention, First Aid, C 2001-2010) } } http://www.reachoutmichigan.org/funexperiments/agesubject/lessons/nitrogen.html } ( "Fun experiments" website last updated 2003) } } http://smb.slac.stanford.edu/users_guide/manual/Experiment_policies.html#SECTION00027000000000000000 } (describes hazards and proper handling procedures for work with liquid nitrogen, 2010) } } http://stores.biochem.uiowa.edu/Pages/ln2msds.htm } ("old" but IMO "good" example for a US-Univ's Safety Data Sheet) } } http://www.chaosscience.org.uk/dem/public_html//article.php?story=20031216175107931 } (Liquid Nitrogen Risk Assessment, 16/12/03 ) } } Also, some Labs are questioning in advance for safety issues on the things someone will bring into the Lab: } e.g. http://www.sbc.anl.gov/pdfs/hazard_assessment_form.pdf (take a look for 'cryogens', Argonne Natl. Lab, SBC Hazard Assessment Form), perhaps just to be on the safe side for their own staff people and Lab's interior. } } AND finally, YES, LN2-ingestion - to take a mouthfull of LN2 and blast it off - only for the EXPERIENCED CAN BE a junky-funky trick, BUT - } on the other side - for the unexperienced (unfortunately also for the 'careless' experienced I have to admit!) - it could be not only dangerous but LIFE threatening: cf. } http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/reprint/105/1/121 } ( Benjamin Z. Koplewitz, et al.... Gastric Perforation Attributable to Liquid Nitrogen Ingestion, } in: Pediatrics 2000;105;121-123, open Access) } } A similar situation has been reported on http://www.darwinawards.com/personal/personal2000-25.html, } which eventually was } awarded { with the DARWIN AWARD in 2000 (==} cit: "The Darwin Awards salute the improvement of the human genome by honoring those who accidentally remove themselves from it..." end of cit.) } } I personally have no doubt that it IS possible (and I have done that for demonstration of "Leidenfrost phenomenon" a lot of times way back...) to place one or two fingers, eventually(and forsure) the whole hand into liquid nitrogen for 1-2 seconds, PROVIDED some necessary PREREQUISITES which - IN ADVANCE - have to be theoretically explained and are to be met to/for those } trying { such an "adventure" and IMO only should be done in a SUPERVISED situation. } } Despite (or better: BECAUSE) respecting all those "little" {problem-makers} in our daily work } (if this is not done by other staff members, I have to to do such work literally by myself) I am not in a blue funk of perhaps desastrous results of using/handling all those substances like } OsO4 (hazard, toxic), p-phenylenediamine (pesticide, toxic), uranyl-acetate from stock powder (radioactive), cryogens (like LN2, precooled isobutane, also Freon gas [some residual inventory] if the pressurized can will be used inverted) and other substances/chemicals (mostly used in very small quantities), not to forget all those "may be hazardous resins" out in the dark... } } WHY I am NOT AFRAID/do not fear those: since I have learned - before handling and using those - } WHAT the respective properties of materials/substances/fluids are, } HOW they have ( practically ) to be used safely, } WHAT the consequences eventually will be (personal and for others) if handled unsafe, and } HOW to dispose of (remnants, by-products of reactions, etc.) properly. } } (as an example for awareness: read: http://www.hull.ac.uk/chemstores/coshhadv.html (COSHH- Control of Substances Hazardous to Health, Univ.Hull, UK: 'part of the U.K.'s CRIMINAL LAW' !) } } Anybody who has {studied} properties of chemicals etc., their handling and use properly and correctly will know how to proceed with the use of material and substances we use in an EM-lab. If this has not be done, no one should do } things { he never got explained and does not know about consequences in case of misuse. } } There IMO is no need to disallow or eventually prohibit (necessary) actions which to the unexperienced (perhaps) will be harmful, but to the experienced does not apply seriously. } So, last but not least: it is the responsibilty of the "experienced" to teach the unexperienced... so you as the {experienced} decide what can be done/shown and what CANNOT be done /shown. } } Concerning: Ice-Cream-experiments with LN2, those perhaps are an "interesting" demonstration for a new practical application but easily can/could be safely substituted by {old fashioned} ice-cream-making (e.g lowering the temperature of the fluids by using eg. the pot-freezer method: the temperature of the ingredients is reduced by placing them inside a tub filled with ice and salt) Cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_cream . } } At the end: just only pointing to the long MSA thread on } N2 gas-LN2 { starting May 2nd 2009 } Conc: [Microscopy] Nitrogen leak (JEOL 6701F SEM) } } } Regards, } Wolfgang MUSS } Head EM-Lab, Pathology } SALK-LKH (Gen. Hosp.) } SALZBURG Austria } } } } } } } -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- } } Von: richard.ross-at-allisontransmission.com } } [mailto:richard.ross-at-allisontransmission.com] } } Gesendet: Dienstag, 26. Jänner 2010 14:57 } } An: Muß Wolfgang } } Betreff: [Microscopy] Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety [Ice-Cream made with } } LN2, concerns about] } } } } -------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of America } } To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver } } On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html } } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } Way back when, Chuck Fiori used to put on a demo with LN2 at the LeHigh SEM school. } } } Chuck wanted to show that sometimes its more hazardous to trap LN2 against the body with protective gear than to give the liedenfrost effect room to create its protective blanket of gas. If the LN2 was provided, he would eventually take some into his mouth and blow 'smoke' rings. He told of a time when he accidentally swallowed some of the LN2 and the resulting stomach gas pressure caused him to black out, falling to the stage unconscious. } Ultimately the excess pressure relieved itself as a belch and Chuck came to. } Chuck certainly taught me things in ways that I remember! { } } } ==============================Original Headers============================== } } 1, 25 -- From richard.ross-at-allisontransmission.com Tue Jan 26 07:53:09 2010 } } 1, 25 -- Received: from plmler2.mail.eds.com (plmler2.mail.eds.com [199.228.142.72]) } } 1, 25 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0QDr9dN015534 } } 1, 25 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 07:53:09 -0600 } } 1, 25 -- Received: from plmlir1.mail.eds.com (plmlir1-2.mail.eds.com [199.228.142.131]) } } 1, 25 -- by plmler2.mail.eds.com (8.14.2/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o0QDr9vK015878 } } 1, 25 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 07:53:09 -0600 } } 1, 25 -- Received: from plmlir1.mail.eds.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) } } 1, 25 -- by plmlir1.mail.eds.com (8.14.2/8.12.10) with ESMTP id o0QDqvQb024949 } } 1, 25 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; 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==============================Original Headers============================== 9, 23 -- From randerson20-at-tampabay.rr.com Wed Jan 27 09:25:47 2010 9, 23 -- Received: from hrndva-omtalb.mail.rr.com (hrndva-omtalb.mail.rr.com [71.74.56.123]) 9, 23 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0RFPk0v013217 9, 23 -- for {Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 09:25:46 -0600 9, 23 -- X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=knBUmDOfSKcA:10 a=Zx37jsudAAAA:8 a=dBsAiYywAAAA:8 a=U-nsmsejAAAA:8 a=xNRMnUh6AAAA:8 a=cqvmlmxeAAAA:8 a=C3W4DVSWAAAA:8 a=T9gOxNRhAAAA:8 a=sGKcSeiLAAAA:8 a=8_ITXHuzAAAA:8 a=ZkH43-3uAAAA:8 a=b1jFz-nKAAAA:8 a=8pif782wAAAA:8 a=eUJmFPOgAAAA:8 a=NMuAF2b7AAAA:8 a=gWKp_hZmAAAA:8 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=GzbNCNjrLu0E3hFhxs0A:9 a=gvmUurnm02Zbe3VieloA:7 a=qr5h04bZLJfevQGnNQnyuGneOwwA:4 a=5JUlSvKOtR0A:10 a=fM1NKZWFy18A:10 a=SEuX1L-y0FMA:10 a=g6JCxQ12blAA:10 a=CVqNqQISH1cA:10 a=bqMkBtCajXsA:10 a=uNrlO47vivkA:10 a=h4fa0A604ksA:10 a=IOhM4Bw-63sA:10 a=LYv4pYcchfEA:10 a=-M0jVIKQNloA:10 a=G91thX30KR8A:10 a=LsTNuwOTaWRwGBuS:21 a=4ck1eP_vO48XLQT9:21 9, 23 -- X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 9, 23 -- X-Originating-IP: 24.73.73.214 9, 23 -- Received: from [24.73.73.214] ([24.73.73.214:1101] helo=[127.0.0.1]) 9, 23 -- by hrndva-oedge04.mail.rr.com (envelope-from {randerson20-at-tampabay.rr.com} ) 9, 23 -- (ecelerity 2.2.2.39 r()) with ESMTP 9, 23 -- id 35/44-28383-9FA506B4; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 15:25:46 +0000 9, 23 -- Message-ID: {4B605AED.1090500-at-tampabay.rr.com} 9, 23 -- Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 10:25:33 -0500 9, 23 -- From: Ron Anderson {randerson20-at-tampabay.rr.com} 9, 23 -- User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) 9, 23 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 9, 23 -- To: kenconverse-at-qualityimages.biz, Listserver {Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com} 9, 23 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] RE: FW: Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety 9, 23 -- References: {201001262315.o0QNFAAD007405-at-ns.microscopy.com} 9, 23 -- In-Reply-To: {201001262315.o0QNFAAD007405-at-ns.microscopy.com} 9, 23 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed 9, 23 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 9, 23 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0RFPk0v013217 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
Escoffier said that a recipe is only a list of ideas. So no, science has not impacted on my cooking. I still have some great successes in the kitchen, and some truly magnificent failures. However, science sure has had an impact on my wine making, and for the better.
paul
-- Paul R. Hazelton, PhD Viral Gastroenteritis Study Group University of Manitoba Department of Medical Microbiology 511 Basic Medical Sciences Building 745 William Avenue Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada, R3E 0J9 e-mail: paul_hazelton-at-umanitoba.ca paulhazelton-at-mts.net Phone: 204-789-3313 (w); 204-489-6924 (h) Cell: 204-781-6982 Fax: 204-789-3926
==============================Original Headers============================== 6, 21 -- From paul_hazelton-at-umanitoba.ca Wed Jan 27 09:27:32 2010 6, 21 -- Received: from electra.cc.umanitoba.ca (electra.cc.umanitoba.ca [130.179.16.34]) 6, 21 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0RFRVJa018266 6, 21 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 09:27:32 -0600 6, 21 -- Received: from [140.193.25.69] (basic069.medmb.umanitoba.ca [140.193.25.69]) 6, 21 -- (user=hazeltn mech=CRAM-MD5 bits=0) 6, 21 -- by electra.cc.umanitoba.ca (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o0RFRTL6003041; 6, 21 -- Wed, 27 Jan 2010 09:27:30 -0600 (CST) 6, 21 -- Message-ID: {4B605B62.8000601-at-umanitoba.ca} 6, 21 -- Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 09:27:30 -0600 6, 21 -- From: paul r hazelton {paul_hazelton-at-umanitoba.ca} 6, 21 -- User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) 6, 21 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 6, 21 -- To: kraftpiano-at-gmail.com 6, 21 -- CC: Microscopy Listserver {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 6, 21 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] Liquid Nitrogen Safety 6, 21 -- References: {201001271438.o0REcb2n016284-at-ns.microscopy.com} 6, 21 -- In-Reply-To: {201001271438.o0REcb2n016284-at-ns.microscopy.com} 6, 21 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed 6, 21 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 6, 21 -- X-DCC-UofM-Metrics: electra; whitelist ==============================End of - Headers==============================
That being said, I think science has had a lot of influence on my cooking, and I sometimes long for lab ware to get things done! I also consider what gets mixed when, what is soluble in fat etc.
However I was cooking long before science, so maybe it's the other way around, how does my cooking affect my science?
Lou Ann
On Jan 27, 2010, at 9:36 AM, paul_hazelton-at-umanitoba.ca wrote:
} } } } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of } America } To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver } On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } Justin } } Escoffier said that a recipe is only a list of ideas. So no, science } has not impacted on my cooking. I still have some great successes in } the kitchen, and some truly magnificent failures. However, science } sure } has had an impact on my wine making, and for the better. } } paul } } -- } Paul R. Hazelton, PhD } Viral Gastroenteritis Study Group } University of Manitoba } Department of Medical Microbiology } 511 Basic Medical Sciences Building } 745 William Avenue } Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada, R3E 0J9 } e-mail: paul_hazelton-at-umanitoba.ca } paulhazelton-at-mts.net } Phone: 204-789-3313 (w); } 204-489-6924 (h) } Cell: 204-781-6982 } Fax: 204-789-3926 } } } } ==============================Original } Headers============================== } 6, 21 -- From paul_hazelton-at-umanitoba.ca Wed Jan 27 09:27:32 2010 } 6, 21 -- Received: from electra.cc.umanitoba.ca } (electra.cc.umanitoba.ca [130.179.16.34]) } 6, 21 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP } id o0RFRVJa018266 } 6, 21 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 09:27:32 } -0600 } 6, 21 -- Received: from [140.193.25.69] (basic069.medmb.umanitoba.ca } [140.193.25.69]) } 6, 21 -- (user=hazeltn mech=CRAM-MD5 bits=0) } 6, 21 -- by electra.cc.umanitoba.ca (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id } o0RFRTL6003041; } 6, 21 -- Wed, 27 Jan 2010 09:27:30 -0600 (CST) } 6, 21 -- Message-ID: {4B605B62.8000601-at-umanitoba.ca} } 6, 21 -- Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 09:27:30 -0600 } 6, 21 -- From: paul r hazelton {paul_hazelton-at-umanitoba.ca} } 6, 21 -- User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) } 6, 21 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 } 6, 21 -- To: kraftpiano-at-gmail.com } 6, 21 -- CC: Microscopy Listserver {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} } 6, 21 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] Liquid Nitrogen Safety } 6, 21 -- References: {201001271438.o0REcb2n016284-at-ns.microscopy.com} } 6, 21 -- In-Reply-To: {201001271438.o0REcb2n016284-at-ns.microscopy.com} } 6, 21 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed } 6, 21 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit } 6, 21 -- X-DCC-UofM-Metrics: electra; whitelist } ==============================End of - } Headers==============================
{ { { { { { { { {} } } } } } } } } } } } } } Lou Ann Miller, Service Supervisor Center for Microscopic Imaging College of Veterinary Medicine University of Illinois MC=002
Room 1204 VMBSBld 2001 S Lincoln Ave Urbana, IL 61821
217-244-1567 http://treefrog.cvm.uiuc.edu
==============================Original Headers============================== 18, 18 -- From lamiller-at-illinois.edu Wed Jan 27 09:55:56 2010 18, 18 -- Received: from expredir6.cites.uiuc.edu (expredir6.cites.uiuc.edu [128.174.5.97]) 18, 18 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0RFtuMH024088 18, 18 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 09:55:56 -0600 18, 18 -- Received: from beowulf.cvm.uiuc.edu (beowulf.cvm.uiuc.edu [130.126.16.163]) 18, 18 -- by expredir6.cites.uiuc.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o0RFttHL014477 18, 18 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 09:55:55 -0600 (CST) 18, 18 -- Message-Id: {A203FECB-A8AD-46AB-B4C9-986444BA49D8-at-illinois.edu} 18, 18 -- From: Lou Ann Miller {lamiller-at-illinois.edu} 18, 18 -- To: Microscopy-at-microscopy.com 18, 18 -- In-Reply-To: {201001271536.o0RFaD7k014934-at-ns.microscopy.com} 18, 18 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes 18, 18 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 18, 18 -- Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) 18, 18 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety 18, 18 -- Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 09:55:55 -0600 18, 18 -- References: {201001271536.o0RFaD7k014934-at-ns.microscopy.com} 18, 18 -- X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) ==============================End of - Headers==============================
At the risk of wasting time with off topic posts I have to chime in.
Having been both a professional chef and a scientist I think I can say with some authority that if you are good at one chances are you will be good at the other, at least in as much as wet lab work goes. The combination of being able to follow a protocol (recipe) while at the same time having enough creativity and knowledge of the principles to experiment a bit and perhaps improve upon it are very advantageous in both the lab and the kitchen. Add to that some manual dexterity, patience and a sense of genuine joy in the possibility of achieving something great and you will get either a very good cook (and) or a very good scientist. Whenever I interview someone for a technical post I ask if they like to cook, those that do generally work out well in the lab.
I will also share that my first kitchen job was as a prep cook. For those who don't know a prep cook is the sorry creature who gets to do all the messy, difficult and downright disgusting jobs the chef no longer wants to do; so you see, it was also excellent training for being a grad student.
Best wishes, Chris
Christopher Guérin, Ph.D. Leader, Microscopy Core Dept. for Molecular Biomedical Research Flanders Institute of Biotechnology (VIB) University of Ghent, Belgium
==============================Original Headers============================== 6, 32 -- From Chris.Guerin-at-dmbr.vib-UGent.be Wed Jan 27 09:56:56 2010 6, 32 -- Received: from smtp2.UGent.be (smtp2.ugent.be [157.193.49.126]) 6, 32 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0RFuu76025643 6, 32 -- for {Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 09:56:56 -0600 6, 32 -- Received: from localhost (mcheck2.ugent.be [157.193.49.249]) 6, 32 -- by smtp2.UGent.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F803449F3C 6, 32 -- for {Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 16:56:55 +0100 (CET) 6, 32 -- X-Virus-Scanned: by UGent DICT 6, 32 -- Received: from smtp2.UGent.be ([157.193.49.126]) 6, 32 -- by localhost (mcheck2.ugent.be [157.193.43.11]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) 6, 32 -- with ESMTP id KzoluC8-jGCm for {Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com} ; 6, 32 -- Wed, 27 Jan 2010 16:56:54 +0100 (CET) 6, 32 -- Received: from smtp.dmbr.UGent.be (dmbr242.fvms.ugent.be [157.193.189.5]) 6, 32 -- by smtp2.UGent.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3553449FD2 6, 32 -- for {Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 16:56:54 +0100 (CET) 6, 32 -- Received: from dmbr129.fvms.ugent.be (dmbr129.fvms.ugent.be [157.193.200.116]) 6, 32 -- by smtp.dmbr.UGent.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FAFF8011A 6, 32 -- for {Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 16:56:54 +0100 (CET) 6, 32 -- From: Chris Guerin {Chris.Guerin-at-dmbr.vib-UGent.be} 6, 32 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 6, 32 -- Subject: Science and cooking 6, 32 -- Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 16:54:36 +0100 6, 32 -- Message-Id: {43BCC00A-43B1-4A95-AF1C-32449EE30810-at-dmbr.vib-UGent.be} 6, 32 -- To: Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com 6, 32 -- Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) 6, 32 -- X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) 6, 32 -- X-Miltered: at mcheck2 with ID 4B606246.001 by Joe's j-chkmail (http://helpdesk.ugent.be/email/)! 6, 32 -- X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 4B606246.001/157.193.189.5/dmbr242.fvms.ugent.be/smtp.dmbr.UGent.be/ {Chris.Guerin-at-dmbr.vib-UGent.be} 6, 32 -- X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 4B606246.001 on smtp2.UGent.be : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -} S=0.000 6, 32 -- X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham 6, 32 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 6, 32 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0RFuu76025643 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
EMBO Practical Course "Electron microscopy and stereology in cell biology"
http://cwp.embo.org/pc10-19/
best regards, Reinhard
--
PD Dr. Reinhard Rachel Universitaet Regensburg Centre for EM - NWF III - -at-Institute for Anatomy Universitaetsstr. 31 D-93053 Regensburg - Germany tel +49 941 943 2837, 1720 fax +49 941 943 2868 mail reinhard.rachel-at-biologie.uni-regensburg.de office: VKL 3.1.29
==============================Original Headers============================== 9, 23 -- From reinhard.rachel-at-biologie.uni-regensburg.de Wed Jan 27 10:19:08 2010 9, 23 -- Received: from rrzmta2.rz.uni-regensburg.de (rrzmta2.rz.uni-regensburg.de [194.94.155.52]) 9, 23 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0RGJ8JL021357 9, 23 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 10:19:08 -0600 9, 23 -- Received: from rrzmta2.rz.uni-regensburg.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) 9, 23 -- by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 3631998E 9, 23 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 17:18:39 +0100 (CET) 9, 23 -- Received: from gwsmtp1.uni-regensburg.de (gwsmtp1.rz.uni-regensburg.de [132.199.5.51]) 9, 23 -- by rrzmta2.rz.uni-regensburg.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 173E897E 9, 23 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 17:18:38 +0100 (CET) 9, 23 -- Received: from uni-regensburg-smtp1-MTA by gwsmtp1.uni-regensburg.de 9, 23 -- with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 17:19:02 +0100 9, 23 -- Message-Id: {4B60758F020000540000B371-at-gwsmtp1.uni-regensburg.de} 9, 23 -- X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 8.0.1 9, 23 -- Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 17:19:11 +0100 9, 23 -- From: "reinhard rachel" {reinhard.rachel-at-biologie.uni-regensburg.de} 9, 23 -- To: "microscopy listserver" {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 9, 23 -- Subject: TEM prep training 9, 23 -- Mime-Version: 1.0 9, 23 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII 9, 23 -- Content-Disposition: inline 9, 23 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 9, 23 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0RGJ8JL021357 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
If you are going to cook, science should come first.
Cheers and chuckles,
Fred Monson
CMIRT West Chester Universrsity http://cmirt.wcupa.edu ________________________________________ X-from: lamiller-at-illinois.edu [lamiller-at-illinois.edu] Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 11:06 AM To: Monson, Frederick
chuckle...
Recipes.... who needs recipes?
That being said, I think science has had a lot of influence on my cooking, and I sometimes long for lab ware to get things done! I also consider what gets mixed when, what is soluble in fat etc.
However I was cooking long before science, so maybe it's the other way around, how does my cooking affect my science?
Lou Ann
On Jan 27, 2010, at 9:36 AM, paul_hazelton-at-umanitoba.ca wrote:
} } } } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of } America } To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver } On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } Justin } } Escoffier said that a recipe is only a list of ideas. So no, science } has not impacted on my cooking. I still have some great successes in } the kitchen, and some truly magnificent failures. However, science } sure } has had an impact on my wine making, and for the better. } } paul } } -- } Paul R. Hazelton, PhD } Viral Gastroenteritis Study Group } University of Manitoba } Department of Medical Microbiology } 511 Basic Medical Sciences Building } 745 William Avenue } Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada, R3E 0J9 } e-mail: paul_hazelton-at-umanitoba.ca } paulhazelton-at-mts.net } Phone: 204-789-3313 (w); } 204-489-6924 (h) } Cell: 204-781-6982 } Fax: 204-789-3926 } } } } ==============================Original } Headers============================== } 6, 21 -- From paul_hazelton-at-umanitoba.ca Wed Jan 27 09:27:32 2010 } 6, 21 -- Received: from electra.cc.umanitoba.ca } (electra.cc.umanitoba.ca [130.179.16.34]) } 6, 21 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP } id o0RFRVJa018266 } 6, 21 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 09:27:32 } -0600 } 6, 21 -- Received: from [140.193.25.69] (basic069.medmb.umanitoba.ca } [140.193.25.69]) } 6, 21 -- (user=hazeltn mech=CRAM-MD5 bits=0) } 6, 21 -- by electra.cc.umanitoba.ca (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id } o0RFRTL6003041; } 6, 21 -- Wed, 27 Jan 2010 09:27:30 -0600 (CST) } 6, 21 -- Message-ID: {4B605B62.8000601-at-umanitoba.ca} } 6, 21 -- Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 09:27:30 -0600 } 6, 21 -- From: paul r hazelton {paul_hazelton-at-umanitoba.ca} } 6, 21 -- User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) } 6, 21 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 } 6, 21 -- To: kraftpiano-at-gmail.com } 6, 21 -- CC: Microscopy Listserver {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} } 6, 21 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] Liquid Nitrogen Safety } 6, 21 -- References: {201001271438.o0REcb2n016284-at-ns.microscopy.com} } 6, 21 -- In-Reply-To: {201001271438.o0REcb2n016284-at-ns.microscopy.com} } 6, 21 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed } 6, 21 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit } 6, 21 -- X-DCC-UofM-Metrics: electra; whitelist } ==============================End of - } Headers==============================
{ { { { { { { { {} } } } } } } } } } } } } } Lou Ann Miller, Service Supervisor Center for Microscopic Imaging College of Veterinary Medicine University of Illinois MC=002
Room 1204 VMBSBld 2001 S Lincoln Ave Urbana, IL 61821
217-244-1567 http://treefrog.cvm.uiuc.edu
==============================Original Headers============================== 18, 18 -- From lamiller-at-illinois.edu Wed Jan 27 09:55:56 2010 18, 18 -- Received: from expredir6.cites.uiuc.edu (expredir6.cites.uiuc.edu [128.174.5.97]) 18, 18 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0RFtuMH024088 18, 18 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 09:55:56 -0600 18, 18 -- Received: from beowulf.cvm.uiuc.edu (beowulf.cvm.uiuc.edu [130.126.16.163]) 18, 18 -- by expredir6.cites.uiuc.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o0RFttHL014477 18, 18 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 09:55:55 -0600 (CST) 18, 18 -- Message-Id: {A203FECB-A8AD-46AB-B4C9-986444BA49D8-at-illinois.edu} 18, 18 -- From: Lou Ann Miller {lamiller-at-illinois.edu} 18, 18 -- To: Microscopy-at-microscopy.com 18, 18 -- In-Reply-To: {201001271536.o0RFaD7k014934-at-ns.microscopy.com} 18, 18 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes 18, 18 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 18, 18 -- Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) 18, 18 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety 18, 18 -- Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 09:55:55 -0600 18, 18 -- References: {201001271536.o0RFaD7k014934-at-ns.microscopy.com} 18, 18 -- X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) ==============================End of - Headers==============================
==============================Original Headers============================== 27, 28 -- From FMonson-at-wcupa.edu Wed Jan 27 11:06:49 2010 27, 28 -- Received: from WCU-EX-ET2.PASSHE.LCL (wcu-ex-et2.wcupa.edu [144.26.0.60]) 27, 28 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0RH6nXk005236 27, 28 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 11:06:49 -0600 27, 28 -- Received: from WCU-EX-HT-CA3.PASSHE.LCL (10.32.4.150) by WCU-EX-ET2.PASSHE.LCL 27, 28 -- (10.32.0.63) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.213.0; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 27, 28 -- 12:06:01 -0500 27, 28 -- Received: from WCU-EX-EMP1-MB.PASSHE.LCL ([fe80::552b:545e:4665:c1fc]) by 27, 28 -- WCU-EX-HT-CA3.PASSHE.LCL ([::1]) with mapi; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 12:06:01 -0500 27, 28 -- From: "Monson, Frederick" {FMonson-at-wcupa.edu} 27, 28 -- To: "microscopy-at-microscopy.com" {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 27, 28 -- CC: "lamiller-at-illinois.edu" {lamiller-at-illinois.edu} 27, 28 -- Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 12:03:39 -0500 27, 28 -- Subject: RE: [Microscopy] Liquid Nitrogen Safety 27, 28 -- Thread-Topic: [Microscopy] Liquid Nitrogen Safety 27, 28 -- Thread-Index: AcqfaqIYI04Nkp4FQ8y0XA8etl9FnQACAmyF 27, 28 -- Message-ID: {86FEE8BCF5652949A08D1EB0545EB424049A8F209D-at-WCU-EX-EMP1-MB.PASSHE.LCL} 27, 28 -- References: {201001271606.o0RG6nQf019510-at-ns.microscopy.com} 27, 28 -- In-Reply-To: {201001271606.o0RG6nQf019510-at-ns.microscopy.com} 27, 28 -- Accept-Language: en-US 27, 28 -- Content-Language: en-US 27, 28 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: 27, 28 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 27, 28 -- acceptlanguage: en-US 27, 28 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 27, 28 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 27, 28 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 27, 28 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0RH6nXk005236 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
Please consider attending yourself and please pass this on to potentially interested students, postdocs, researchers and professors.
50% of the 125 open seats have already been filled, so waiting much longer may mean missing out on this great meeting, if EBSD is your interest.
What: Microbeam Analysis Society's EBSD 2010 Topical Conference When: Monday May 24-Wednesday May 26 (also several vendor events Sunday May 23 Where: University of Wisconsin, Madison, WI Who: everyone from raw novices to experienced practitioners Why: a one day tutorial with hands-on labs for beginners, and 2 days of invited and contributed talks on the latest topics, including sample prep for both geological material and metals
There is abundant funding for student participation, and any student using EBSD or contemplating using EBSD in their research should plan to attend! The deadline for applications for financial aid is March 1 (you must be registered first, but submission of an abstract is not required.)
Abstract submission deadline is March 1.
Invited/confirmed Speakers:
Carl Boehlert, Michigan State University - "In-situ SEM/EBSD observations of structural alloys during elevated-temperature deformation" Roy Geiss, NIST-Boulder - "Case Studies of Elastic Strain Measurement on Crystalline Materials using EBSD" Brad Hacker, Univ of California, Santa Barbara - "Seismic anisotrophy in Earth's crust" Elisabetta Mariani, Liverpool University - "Recrystallization in geological materials: from in-situ to time series experiments" Steve Reddy, Curtain University, Australia - "Integrating EBSD with high spatial resolution geochemistry & some geological applications" Aimo Winkelmann, MPI für Mikrostrukturphysik , Halle, Germany - "Depth sensitivity and energy resolution of EBSD"
Also, geologists may be interested in the NSF-supported "Structural Geology and Tectonics Forum" being held immediately proceeding the EBSD conference. It will be May 20-22 at UW-Madison, and to get further details contact Richard Becker (rabecker2-at-wisc.edu).
-- ======================================================== John Fournelle, Ph.D. office: (608) 262-7964 cell: (608) 438-7480 Cameron Electron Microprobe Lab lab: (608) 265-4798 Department of Geoscience fax: (608) 262-0693 University of Wisconsin home: (608) 274-2245 1215 West Dayton St. email: johnf-at-geology.wisc.edu Madison, WI 53706 amateur radio: WA3BTA Personal http://www.geology.wisc.edu/~johnf/ Probe lab http://www.geology.wisc.edu/~johnf/sx51.html Probe Sign Up Calender: http://www.microscopy.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/calendar/microprobe/calendar.cgi
"The first rule of all intelligent tinkering is to save every cog and wheel." -- Aldo Leopold
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard P. Feynman
==============================Original Headers============================== 13, 26 -- From johnf-at-geology.wisc.edu Wed Jan 27 11:34:56 2010 13, 26 -- Received: from mail.geology.wisc.edu (mail.geology.wisc.edu [144.92.206.10]) 13, 26 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0RHYupl020516 13, 26 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 11:34:56 -0600 13, 26 -- Received: from localhost (mail.geology.wisc.edu [127.0.0.1]) 13, 26 -- by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id B685A5C8206 13, 26 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 11:34:55 -0600 (CST) 13, 26 -- X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at geology.wisc.edu 13, 26 -- Received: from mail.geology.wisc.edu ([127.0.0.1]) 13, 26 -- by localhost (mail.geology.wisc.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) 13, 26 -- with ESMTP id v+GFQL3R+nZJ for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; 13, 26 -- Wed, 27 Jan 2010 11:34:55 -0600 (CST) 13, 26 -- Received: from [144.92.206.57] (beamer.geology.wisc.edu [144.92.206.57]) 13, 26 -- (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) 13, 26 -- (No client certificate requested) 13, 26 -- by mail.geology.wisc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B7945C81F3 13, 26 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 11:34:55 -0600 (CST) 13, 26 -- Mime-Version: 1.0 13, 26 -- Message-Id: {p06230910c7862991cf39-at-[144.92.206.57]} 13, 26 -- Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 11:34:52 -0600 13, 26 -- To: {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 13, 26 -- From: John Fournelle {johnf-at-geology.wisc.edu} 13, 26 -- Subject: Reminder: EBSD 2010 conference May 2010 13, 26 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" 13, 26 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 13, 26 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0RHYupl020516 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
On Jan 27, 2010, at 11:13 AM, FMonson-at-wcupa.edu wrote:
} } } } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of } America } To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver } On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } http://chestjournal.chestpubs.org/content/118/4/1150.full } } Dear Lou Ann, } } If you are going to cook, science should come first. } } Cheers and chuckles, } } Fred Monson } } CMIRT } West Chester Universrsity } http://cmirt.wcupa.edu } ________________________________________ } X-from: lamiller-at-illinois.edu [lamiller-at-illinois.edu] } Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 11:06 AM } To: Monson, Frederick } Subject: [Microscopy] Liquid Nitrogen Safety } } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of } America } To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver } On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } chuckle... } } Recipes.... who needs recipes? } } That being said, I think science has had a lot of influence on my } cooking, and I sometimes long for lab ware to get things done! } I also consider what gets mixed when, what is soluble in fat etc. } } However I was cooking long before science, so maybe it's the other way } around, how does my cooking affect my science? } } } Lou Ann } }
{ { { { { { { { {} } } } } } } } } } } } } } Lou Ann Miller, Service Supervisor Center for Microscopic Imaging College of Veterinary Medicine University of Illinois MC=002
Room 1204 VMBSBld 2001 S Lincoln Ave Urbana, IL 61821
217-244-1567 http://treefrog.cvm.uiuc.edu
==============================Original Headers============================== 13, 18 -- From lamiller-at-illinois.edu Wed Jan 27 11:41:53 2010 13, 18 -- Received: from expredir7.cites.uiuc.edu (expredir7.cites.uiuc.edu [128.174.5.168]) 13, 18 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0RHfro1002713 13, 18 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 11:41:53 -0600 13, 18 -- Received: from beowulf.cvm.uiuc.edu (beowulf.cvm.uiuc.edu [130.126.16.163]) 13, 18 -- by expredir7.cites.uiuc.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o0RHfrQk009544 13, 18 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 11:41:53 -0600 (CST) 13, 18 -- Message-Id: {63A703A8-58B4-473D-8A5B-1F274559C65B-at-illinois.edu} 13, 18 -- From: Lou Ann Miller {lamiller-at-illinois.edu} 13, 18 -- To: Microscopy-at-microscopy.com 13, 18 -- In-Reply-To: {201001271713.o0RHDmWR016066-at-ns.microscopy.com} 13, 18 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes 13, 18 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 13, 18 -- Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) 13, 18 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] RE: Liquid Nitrogen Safety 13, 18 -- Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 11:41:52 -0600 13, 18 -- References: {201001271713.o0RHDmWR016066-at-ns.microscopy.com} 13, 18 -- X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) ==============================End of - Headers==============================
There is one important point that I did not see in this thread. If I pour liquid nitrogen across the palm of my hand it does no harm - as long as it runs off quickly. The gas layer protects me.
However, if I pour liquid nitrogen onto the back of my hand I will almost certainly get a burn. The difference is that I have hair on the back of my hand and it only takes a very small drop of liquid nitrogen to be held in the same place by the hairs, for a burn to result. The nitrogen must not be allowed to sit in the same place for any length of time.
On a completely separate point, related to ice cream. If you want to know why the Japanese suffer fewer heart attacks etc, read The Spirit Level. This is the most important book of 2009 and probably (in my view) the most important book of the decade.
Alwyn Eades
The Spirit Level: Why Greater Equality Makes Societies Stronger R. Wilkinson and K. Pickett Bloomsbury Press, 2009 (Publisher in the UK: Allen Lane)
-- ........... Alwyn Eades Department of Materials Science and Engineering Lehigh University 5 East Packer Avenue Bethlehem Pennsylvania 18015-3195 Phone 610 758 4231 Fax 610 758 4244 jae5-at-lehigh.edu
==============================Original Headers============================== 8, 21 -- From jae5-at-lehigh.edu Wed Jan 27 12:49:53 2010 8, 21 -- Received: from rain.cc.lehigh.edu (rain.cc.lehigh.edu [128.180.2.160]) 8, 21 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0RInrm7019894 8, 21 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 12:49:53 -0600 8, 21 -- Received: from [127.0.0.1] (Dyn055026.mat.Lehigh.EDU [128.180.55.26]) 8, 21 -- (authenticated bits=0) 8, 21 -- by rain.cc.lehigh.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id o0RInqlN022824 8, 21 -- (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) 8, 21 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 13:49:52 -0500 8, 21 -- Message-ID: {4B608ACF.7010105-at-lehigh.edu} 8, 21 -- Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 13:49:51 -0500 8, 21 -- From: Alwyn Eades {jae5-at-lehigh.edu} 8, 21 -- Organization: Lehigh University 8, 21 -- User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) 8, 21 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 8, 21 -- To: "MicroscopyListserver (E-mail)" {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 8, 21 -- Subject: Liquid nitrogen and obesity (again) 8, 21 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed 8, 21 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 8, 21 -- X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.3 at rain.cc.lehigh.edu 8, 21 -- X-Virus-Status: Clean ==============================End of - Headers==============================
I know that some people collect sightings of electron microscopes in movies. Am I the only person who was so bored by Avatar that I spotted a TEM (at least one, it might even have been two - I will have to wait for the cable release to be sure) in one of the scenes in the lab?
-- ........... Alwyn Eades Department of Materials Science and Engineering Lehigh University 5 East Packer Avenue Bethlehem Pennsylvania 18015-3195 Phone 610 758 4231 Fax 610 758 4244 jae5-at-lehigh.edu
==============================Original Headers============================== 4, 21 -- From jae5-at-lehigh.edu Wed Jan 27 13:49:17 2010 4, 21 -- Received: from rain.cc.lehigh.edu (rain.cc.lehigh.edu [128.180.2.160]) 4, 21 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0RJnHgF004470 4, 21 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 13:49:17 -0600 4, 21 -- Received: from [127.0.0.1] (Dyn055026.mat.Lehigh.EDU [128.180.55.26]) 4, 21 -- (authenticated bits=0) 4, 21 -- by rain.cc.lehigh.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id o0RJnHaM030241 4, 21 -- (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) 4, 21 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:49:17 -0500 4, 21 -- Message-ID: {4B6098BC.1030306-at-lehigh.edu} 4, 21 -- Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:49:16 -0500 4, 21 -- From: Alwyn Eades {jae5-at-lehigh.edu} 4, 21 -- Organization: Lehigh University 4, 21 -- User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) 4, 21 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 4, 21 -- To: "MicroscopyListserver (E-mail)" {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 4, 21 -- Subject: TEM in Avatar 4, 21 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed 4, 21 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 4, 21 -- X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.3 at rain.cc.lehigh.edu 4, 21 -- X-Virus-Status: Clean ==============================End of - Headers==============================
I am pretty sure I saw it too. At least a very TEM-like column.
Randy Tindall Senior EM Specialist Electron Microscopy Core Facility---We Do Small Well! W125 Veterinary Medicine University of Missouri Columbia, MO 65211 Tel: (573) 882-8304 Fax: (573) 884-2227 Email: tindallr-at-missouri.edu Web: http://www.emc.missouri.edu On-line calendar: http://biotech.rnet.missouri.edu/cgi-bin/Calcium310.pl?Op=Splash&Amount=Week&NavType=Both&Type=TimePlan Sons of Norway: http://www.sofn.com
-----Original Message----- X-from: jae5-at-lehigh.edu [mailto:jae5-at-lehigh.edu] Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 1:50 PM To: Tindall, Randy D.
I know that some people collect sightings of electron microscopes in movies. Am I the only person who was so bored by Avatar that I spotted a TEM (at least one, it might even have been two - I will have to wait for the cable release to be sure) in one of the scenes in the lab?
-- ........... Alwyn Eades Department of Materials Science and Engineering Lehigh University 5 East Packer Avenue Bethlehem Pennsylvania 18015-3195 Phone 610 758 4231 Fax 610 758 4244 jae5-at-lehigh.edu
==============================Original Headers============================== 4, 21 -- From jae5-at-lehigh.edu Wed Jan 27 13:49:17 2010 4, 21 -- Received: from rain.cc.lehigh.edu (rain.cc.lehigh.edu [128.180.2.160]) 4, 21 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0RJnHgF004470 4, 21 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 13:49:17 -0600 4, 21 -- Received: from [127.0.0.1] (Dyn055026.mat.Lehigh.EDU [128.180.55.26]) 4, 21 -- (authenticated bits=0) 4, 21 -- by rain.cc.lehigh.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id o0RJnHaM030241 4, 21 -- (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) 4, 21 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:49:17 -0500 4, 21 -- Message-ID: {4B6098BC.1030306-at-lehigh.edu} 4, 21 -- Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:49:16 -0500 4, 21 -- From: Alwyn Eades {jae5-at-lehigh.edu} 4, 21 -- Organization: Lehigh University 4, 21 -- User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) 4, 21 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 4, 21 -- To: "MicroscopyListserver (E-mail)" {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 4, 21 -- Subject: TEM in Avatar 4, 21 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed 4, 21 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 4, 21 -- X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.3 at rain.cc.lehigh.edu 4, 21 -- X-Virus-Status: Clean ==============================End of - Headers==============================
==============================Original Headers============================== 16, 33 -- From TindallR-at-missouri.edu Wed Jan 27 13:51:47 2010 16, 33 -- Received: from mxnip01-missouri-out.um.umsystem.edu (mxnip01-missouri-out.um.umsystem.edu [209.106.229.53]) 16, 33 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0RJpkHo008451 16, 33 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 13:51:46 -0600 16, 33 -- X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true 16, 33 -- X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ag4FAKYoYEvRauUp/2dsb2JhbACcOq9qAQmFFIggAoI6DYFwBI1q 16, 33 -- Received: from unknown (HELO um-nsmtpout1.um.umsystem.edu) ([209.106.229.41]) 16, 33 -- by mxnip01-missouri-out.um.umsystem.edu with ESMTP; 27 Jan 2010 13:51:46 -0600 16, 33 -- Received: from UM-THUB01.um.umsystem.edu ([209.106.230.181]) by um-nsmtpout1.um.umsystem.edu with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); 16, 33 -- Wed, 27 Jan 2010 13:51:46 -0600 16, 33 -- Received: from um-email06.um.umsystem.edu ([169.254.1.171]) by 16, 33 -- UM-THUB01.um.umsystem.edu ([209.106.230.181]) with mapi; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 16, 33 -- 13:51:45 -0600 16, 33 -- From: "Tindall, Randy D." {TindallR-at-missouri.edu} 16, 33 -- To: "jae5-at-lehigh.edu" {jae5-at-lehigh.edu} 16, 33 -- CC: "microscopy-at-microscopy.com" {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 16, 33 -- Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 13:51:44 -0600 16, 33 -- Subject: RE: [Microscopy] TEM in Avatar 16, 33 -- Thread-Topic: [Microscopy] TEM in Avatar 16, 33 -- Thread-Index: Acqfifamw0//KEDBTIyePqP4J4N8EgAABf9Q 16, 33 -- Message-ID: {9422E68616A7C648A281C0B5CD22A4B8224DFE5732-at-UM-EMAIL06.um.umsystem.edu} 16, 33 -- References: {201001271950.o0RJoI9T005999-at-ns.microscopy.com} 16, 33 -- In-Reply-To: {201001271950.o0RJoI9T005999-at-ns.microscopy.com} 16, 33 -- Accept-Language: en-US 16, 33 -- Content-Language: en-US 16, 33 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: 16, 33 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 16, 33 -- acceptlanguage: en-US 16, 33 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 16, 33 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 16, 33 -- X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Jan 2010 19:51:46.0189 (UTC) FILETIME=[282E0BD0:01CA9F8A] 16, 33 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 16, 33 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0RJpkHo008451 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
I saw them as well. I thought one looked very similar to the FEI Technai series, and the other I can't remember the name of, but it has the smoked plastic around the column.
Steve Lee Chief Technologist Electron Microscopy Laboratory Baylor University Medical Center 3500 Gaston Ave Dallas, TX 75246 ( 214.820.3302 Ê 214.820.4110 ( stevenle-at-baylorhealth.edu
-----Original Message----- X-from: TindallR-at-missouri.edu [mailto:TindallR-at-missouri.edu] Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 1:57 PM To: Lee, Steven
I am pretty sure I saw it too. At least a very TEM-like column.
Randy Tindall Senior EM Specialist Electron Microscopy Core Facility---We Do Small Well! W125 Veterinary Medicine University of Missouri Columbia, MO 65211 Tel: (573) 882-8304 Fax: (573) 884-2227 Email: tindallr-at-missouri.edu Web: http://www.emc.missouri.edu On-line calendar: http://biotech.rnet.missouri.edu/cgi-bin/Calcium310.pl?Op=Splash&Amount=Week&NavType=Both&Type=TimePlan Sons of Norway: http://www.sofn.com
-----Original Message----- X-from: jae5-at-lehigh.edu [mailto:jae5-at-lehigh.edu] Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 1:50 PM To: Tindall, Randy D.
I know that some people collect sightings of electron microscopes in movies. Am I the only person who was so bored by Avatar that I spotted a TEM (at least one, it might even have been two - I will have to wait for the cable release to be sure) in one of the scenes in the lab?
-- ........... Alwyn Eades Department of Materials Science and Engineering Lehigh University 5 East Packer Avenue Bethlehem Pennsylvania 18015-3195 Phone 610 758 4231 Fax 610 758 4244 jae5-at-lehigh.edu
==============================Original Headers============================== 4, 21 -- From jae5-at-lehigh.edu Wed Jan 27 13:49:17 2010 4, 21 -- Received: from rain.cc.lehigh.edu (rain.cc.lehigh.edu [128.180.2.160]) 4, 21 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0RJnHgF004470 4, 21 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 13:49:17 -0600 4, 21 -- Received: from [127.0.0.1] (Dyn055026.mat.Lehigh.EDU [128.180.55.26]) 4, 21 -- (authenticated bits=0) 4, 21 -- by rain.cc.lehigh.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id o0RJnHaM030241 4, 21 -- (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) 4, 21 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:49:17 -0500 4, 21 -- Message-ID: {4B6098BC.1030306-at-lehigh.edu} 4, 21 -- Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:49:16 -0500 4, 21 -- From: Alwyn Eades {jae5-at-lehigh.edu} 4, 21 -- Organization: Lehigh University 4, 21 -- User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) 4, 21 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 4, 21 -- To: "MicroscopyListserver (E-mail)" {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 4, 21 -- Subject: TEM in Avatar 4, 21 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed 4, 21 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 4, 21 -- X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.3 at rain.cc.lehigh.edu 4, 21 -- X-Virus-Status: Clean ==============================End of - Headers==============================
==============================Original Headers============================== 16, 33 -- From TindallR-at-missouri.edu Wed Jan 27 13:51:47 2010 16, 33 -- Received: from mxnip01-missouri-out.um.umsystem.edu (mxnip01-missouri-out.um.umsystem.edu [209.106.229.53]) 16, 33 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0RJpkHo008451 16, 33 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 13:51:46 -0600 16, 33 -- X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true 16, 33 -- X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ag4FAKYoYEvRauUp/2dsb2JhbACcOq9qAQmFFIggAoI6DYFwBI1q 16, 33 -- Received: from unknown (HELO um-nsmtpout1.um.umsystem.edu) ([209.106.229.41]) 16, 33 -- by mxnip01-missouri-out.um.umsystem.edu with ESMTP; 27 Jan 2010 13:51:46 -0600 16, 33 -- Received: from UM-THUB01.um.umsystem.edu ([209.106.230.181]) by um-nsmtpout1.um.umsystem.edu with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); 16, 33 -- Wed, 27 Jan 2010 13:51:46 -0600 16, 33 -- Received: from um-email06.um.umsystem.edu ([169.254.1.171]) by 16, 33 -- UM-THUB01.um.umsystem.edu ([209.106.230.181]) with mapi; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 16, 33 -- 13:51:45 -0600 16, 33 -- From: "Tindall, Randy D." {TindallR-at-missouri.edu} 16, 33 -- To: "jae5-at-lehigh.edu" {jae5-at-lehigh.edu} 16, 33 -- CC: "microscopy-at-microscopy.com" {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 16, 33 -- Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 13:51:44 -0600 16, 33 -- Subject: RE: [Microscopy] TEM in Avatar 16, 33 -- Thread-Topic: [Microscopy] TEM in Avatar 16, 33 -- Thread-Index: Acqfifamw0//KEDBTIyePqP4J4N8EgAABf9Q 16, 33 -- Message-ID: {9422E68616A7C648A281C0B5CD22A4B8224DFE5732-at-UM-EMAIL06.um.umsystem.edu} 16, 33 -- References: {201001271950.o0RJoI9T005999-at-ns.microscopy.com} 16, 33 -- In-Reply-To: {201001271950.o0RJoI9T005999-at-ns.microscopy.com} 16, 33 -- Accept-Language: en-US 16, 33 -- Content-Language: en-US 16, 33 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: 16, 33 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 16, 33 -- acceptlanguage: en-US 16, 33 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 16, 33 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 16, 33 -- X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Jan 2010 19:51:46.0189 (UTC) FILETIME=[282E0BD0:01CA9F8A] 16, 33 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 16, 33 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0RJpkHo008451 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
********************************************************************** This e-mail may contain confidential and/or privileged information. This information is intended only for the use of the individual(s) and entity(ies) to whom it is addressed. If you are the intended recipient, further disclosures are prohibited without proper authorization. If you are not the intended recipient (or have received this e-mail in error) please notify the sender immediately and destroy this e-mail. Any unauthorized copying, disclosure or distribution of the material in this e-mail is strictly forbidden and possibly a violation of federal or state law and regulations. Baylor Health Care System, its subsidiaries, and affiliates hereby claim all applicable privileges related to this information.
==============================Original Headers============================== 26, 30 -- From StevenLe-at-BaylorHealth.edu Wed Jan 27 14:01:39 2010 26, 30 -- Received: from bhdappagnt02.baylorhealth.edu (mailhost1.baylorhealth.edu [65.248.93.160]) 26, 30 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0RK1dZ5001655 26, 30 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:01:39 -0600 26, 30 -- Received: from BHDAEXIMS02.bhcs.pvt ([10.100.14.73]) 26, 30 -- by bhdappagnt02.baylorhealth.edu (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o0RK1cIq009657 26, 30 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:01:38 -0600 26, 30 -- X-TM-IMSS-Message-ID: {43ec474a000909c1-at-bhcs.pvt} 26, 30 -- Received: from BHDAEXHT01.bhcs.pvt ([10.5.12.193]) by bhcs.pvt ([10.100.14.73]) with ESMTP (TREND IMSS SMTP Service 7.0; TLS: TLSv1/SSLv3,128bits,RC4-MD5) id 43ec474a000909c1 ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:01:38 -0600 26, 30 -- Received: from BHDAEXVM32.bhcs.pvt ([10.5.3.122]) by BHDAEXHT01.bhcs.pvt 26, 30 -- ([10.5.12.193]) with mapi; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:01:38 -0600 26, 30 -- From: "Lee, Steven" {StevenLe-at-BaylorHealth.edu} 26, 30 -- To: "'microscopy-at-microscopy.com'" {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 26, 30 -- Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:01:36 -0600 26, 30 -- Subject: RE: [Microscopy] RE: TEM in Avatar 26, 30 -- Thread-Topic: [Microscopy] RE: TEM in Avatar 26, 30 -- Thread-Index: AcqfiuRaMocKZluITmOpXkcRArVSTwAACFAg 26, 30 -- Message-ID: {492DD4D34D5DC5489E59D73B0506681C11CFDE582B-at-BHDAEXVM32.bhcs.pvt} 26, 30 -- References: {201001271956.o0RJuxDo021355-at-ns.microscopy.com} 26, 30 -- In-Reply-To: {201001271956.o0RJuxDo021355-at-ns.microscopy.com} 26, 30 -- Accept-Language: en-US 26, 30 -- Content-Language: en-US 26, 30 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: 26, 30 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 26, 30 -- acceptlanguage: en-US 26, 30 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" 26, 30 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 26, 30 -- X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=1.12.8161:2.4.5,1.2.40,4.0.166 definitions=2010-01-27_10:2010-01-20,2010-01-27,2010-01-27 signatures=0 26, 30 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 26, 30 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0RK1dZ5001655 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
There is also an orange column TEM in the TV series Dexter. When he's in his little lab. I too have been bored by TV and movies.
More TEM's in movies I say....actually how bout an old VG HB501. I know the one here has more character and versatility than some leading actors and actresses out there and it works for free. The microscopist on the other hand will need food, drink and board.
________________________________________ X-from: StevenLe-at-BaylorHealth.edu [StevenLe-at-BaylorHealth.edu] Sent: 27 January 2010 20:08 To: George Theodossiou
I saw them as well. I thought one looked very similar to the FEI Technai series, and the other I can't remember the name of, but it has the smoked plastic around the column.
Steve Lee Chief Technologist Electron Microscopy Laboratory Baylor University Medical Center 3500 Gaston Ave Dallas, TX 75246 ( 214.820.3302 Ê 214.820.4110 ( stevenle-at-baylorhealth.edu
-----Original Message----- X-from: TindallR-at-missouri.edu [mailto:TindallR-at-missouri.edu] Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 1:57 PM To: Lee, Steven
I am pretty sure I saw it too. At least a very TEM-like column.
Randy Tindall Senior EM Specialist Electron Microscopy Core Facility---We Do Small Well! W125 Veterinary Medicine University of Missouri Columbia, MO 65211 Tel: (573) 882-8304 Fax: (573) 884-2227 Email: tindallr-at-missouri.edu Web: http://www.emc.missouri.edu On-line calendar: http://biotech.rnet.missouri.edu/cgi-bin/Calcium310.pl?Op=Splash&Amount=Week&NavType=Both&Type=TimePlan Sons of Norway: http://www.sofn.com
-----Original Message----- X-from: jae5-at-lehigh.edu [mailto:jae5-at-lehigh.edu] Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 1:50 PM To: Tindall, Randy D.
I know that some people collect sightings of electron microscopes in movies. Am I the only person who was so bored by Avatar that I spotted a TEM (at least one, it might even have been two - I will have to wait for the cable release to be sure) in one of the scenes in the lab?
-- ........... Alwyn Eades Department of Materials Science and Engineering Lehigh University 5 East Packer Avenue Bethlehem Pennsylvania 18015-3195 Phone 610 758 4231 Fax 610 758 4244 jae5-at-lehigh.edu
==============================Original Headers============================== 4, 21 -- From jae5-at-lehigh.edu Wed Jan 27 13:49:17 2010 4, 21 -- Received: from rain.cc.lehigh.edu (rain.cc.lehigh.edu [128.180.2.160]) 4, 21 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0RJnHgF004470 4, 21 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 13:49:17 -0600 4, 21 -- Received: from [127.0.0.1] (Dyn055026.mat.Lehigh.EDU [128.180.55.26]) 4, 21 -- (authenticated bits=0) 4, 21 -- by rain.cc.lehigh.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id o0RJnHaM030241 4, 21 -- (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) 4, 21 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:49:17 -0500 4, 21 -- Message-ID: {4B6098BC.1030306-at-lehigh.edu} 4, 21 -- Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:49:16 -0500 4, 21 -- From: Alwyn Eades {jae5-at-lehigh.edu} 4, 21 -- Organization: Lehigh University 4, 21 -- User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) 4, 21 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 4, 21 -- To: "MicroscopyListserver (E-mail)" {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 4, 21 -- Subject: TEM in Avatar 4, 21 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed 4, 21 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 4, 21 -- X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.3 at rain.cc.lehigh.edu 4, 21 -- X-Virus-Status: Clean ==============================End of - Headers==============================
==============================Original Headers============================== 16, 33 -- From TindallR-at-missouri.edu Wed Jan 27 13:51:47 2010 16, 33 -- Received: from mxnip01-missouri-out.um.umsystem.edu (mxnip01-missouri-out.um.umsystem.edu [209.106.229.53]) 16, 33 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0RJpkHo008451 16, 33 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 13:51:46 -0600 16, 33 -- X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true 16, 33 -- X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ag4FAKYoYEvRauUp/2dsb2JhbACcOq9qAQmFFIggAoI6DYFwBI1q 16, 33 -- Received: from unknown (HELO um-nsmtpout1.um.umsystem.edu) ([209.106.229.41]) 16, 33 -- by mxnip01-missouri-out.um.umsystem.edu with ESMTP; 27 Jan 2010 13:51:46 -0600 16, 33 -- Received: from UM-THUB01.um.umsystem.edu ([209.106.230.181]) by um-nsmtpout1.um.umsystem.edu with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); 16, 33 -- Wed, 27 Jan 2010 13:51:46 -0600 16, 33 -- Received: from um-email06.um.umsystem.edu ([169.254.1.171]) by 16, 33 -- UM-THUB01.um.umsystem.edu ([209.106.230.181]) with mapi; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 16, 33 -- 13:51:45 -0600 16, 33 -- From: "Tindall, Randy D." {TindallR-at-missouri.edu} 16, 33 -- To: "jae5-at-lehigh.edu" {jae5-at-lehigh.edu} 16, 33 -- CC: "microscopy-at-microscopy.com" {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 16, 33 -- Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 13:51:44 -0600 16, 33 -- Subject: RE: [Microscopy] TEM in Avatar 16, 33 -- Thread-Topic: [Microscopy] TEM in Avatar 16, 33 -- Thread-Index: Acqfifamw0//KEDBTIyePqP4J4N8EgAABf9Q 16, 33 -- Message-ID: {9422E68616A7C648A281C0B5CD22A4B8224DFE5732-at-UM-EMAIL06.um.umsystem.edu} 16, 33 -- References: {201001271950.o0RJoI9T005999-at-ns.microscopy.com} 16, 33 -- In-Reply-To: {201001271950.o0RJoI9T005999-at-ns.microscopy.com} 16, 33 -- Accept-Language: en-US 16, 33 -- Content-Language: en-US 16, 33 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: 16, 33 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 16, 33 -- acceptlanguage: en-US 16, 33 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 16, 33 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 16, 33 -- X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Jan 2010 19:51:46.0189 (UTC) FILETIME=[282E0BD0:01CA9F8A] 16, 33 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 16, 33 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0RJpkHo008451 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
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==============================Original Headers============================== 26, 30 -- From StevenLe-at-BaylorHealth.edu Wed Jan 27 14:01:39 2010 26, 30 -- Received: from bhdappagnt02.baylorhealth.edu (mailhost1.baylorhealth.edu [65.248.93.160]) 26, 30 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0RK1dZ5001655 26, 30 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:01:39 -0600 26, 30 -- Received: from BHDAEXIMS02.bhcs.pvt ([10.100.14.73]) 26, 30 -- by bhdappagnt02.baylorhealth.edu (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o0RK1cIq009657 26, 30 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:01:38 -0600 26, 30 -- X-TM-IMSS-Message-ID: {43ec474a000909c1-at-bhcs.pvt} 26, 30 -- Received: from BHDAEXHT01.bhcs.pvt ([10.5.12.193]) by bhcs.pvt ([10.100.14.73]) with ESMTP (TREND IMSS SMTP Service 7.0; TLS: TLSv1/SSLv3,128bits,RC4-MD5) id 43ec474a000909c1 ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:01:38 -0600 26, 30 -- Received: from BHDAEXVM32.bhcs.pvt ([10.5.3.122]) by BHDAEXHT01.bhcs.pvt 26, 30 -- ([10.5.12.193]) with mapi; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:01:38 -0600 26, 30 -- From: "Lee, Steven" {StevenLe-at-BaylorHealth.edu} 26, 30 -- To: "'microscopy-at-microscopy.com'" {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 26, 30 -- Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:01:36 -0600 26, 30 -- Subject: RE: [Microscopy] RE: TEM in Avatar 26, 30 -- Thread-Topic: [Microscopy] RE: TEM in Avatar 26, 30 -- Thread-Index: AcqfiuRaMocKZluITmOpXkcRArVSTwAACFAg 26, 30 -- Message-ID: {492DD4D34D5DC5489E59D73B0506681C11CFDE582B-at-BHDAEXVM32.bhcs.pvt} 26, 30 -- References: {201001271956.o0RJuxDo021355-at-ns.microscopy.com} 26, 30 -- In-Reply-To: {201001271956.o0RJuxDo021355-at-ns.microscopy.com} 26, 30 -- Accept-Language: en-US 26, 30 -- Content-Language: en-US 26, 30 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: 26, 30 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 26, 30 -- acceptlanguage: en-US 26, 30 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" 26, 30 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 26, 30 -- X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=1.12.8161:2.4.5,1.2.40,4.0.166 definitions=2010-01-27_10:2010-01-20,2010-01-27,2010-01-27 signatures=0 26, 30 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 26, 30 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0RK1dZ5001655 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
==============================Original Headers============================== 34, 30 -- From george.theodossiou-at-st-annes.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 27 14:37:08 2010 34, 30 -- Received: from relay1.mail.ox.ac.uk (relay1.mail.ox.ac.uk [129.67.1.165]) 34, 30 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0RKb7Tx017677 34, 30 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:37:07 -0600 34, 30 -- Received: from smtp2.nexus.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.154.136] helo=exht02.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk) 34, 30 -- by relay1.mail.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.71) 34, 30 -- (envelope-from {george.theodossiou-at-st-annes.ox.ac.uk} ) 34, 30 -- id 1NaEdO-0002Da-5L 34, 30 -- for Microscopy-at-microscopy.com; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 20:37:06 +0000 34, 30 -- Received: from EXMBX05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk ([169.254.2.79]) by 34, 30 -- exht02.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.154.53]) with mapi; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 20:37:06 34, 30 -- +0000 34, 30 -- From: George Theodossiou {george.theodossiou-at-st-annes.ox.ac.uk} 34, 30 -- To: "Microscopy-at-microscopy.com" {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 34, 30 -- Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 20:37:06 +0000 34, 30 -- Subject: RE: [Microscopy] TEM in Avatar 34, 30 -- Thread-Topic: [Microscopy] TEM in Avatar 34, 30 -- Thread-Index: AcqfjIWnfP3LptlxT82+vaUD4DCREwAAuNZn 34, 30 -- Message-ID: {513007C23A33014CA94A4F21DAAF7903115009C767-at-EXMBX05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk} 34, 30 -- References: {201001272008.o0RK8evA016253-at-ns.microscopy.com} 34, 30 -- In-Reply-To: {201001272008.o0RK8evA016253-at-ns.microscopy.com} 34, 30 -- Accept-Language: en-US, en-GB 34, 30 -- Content-Language: en-GB 34, 30 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: 34, 30 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 34, 30 -- acceptlanguage: en-US, en-GB 34, 30 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" 34, 30 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 34, 30 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 34, 30 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0RKb7Tx017677 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
========================================================== Forwarded from "Ask a Microscopist" Please remember that the original poster is likely not a member of MSA, and any reply should go directly to the poster as well as to the list. ==========================================================
} Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 12:15:15 -0800 (PST) } From: "Susan C. Van Horn" {susan.vanhorn-at-sunysb.edu} } To: oshel1pe-at-cmich.edu } Subject: Ask-A-Microscopist } } Below is the result of your form, submitted on Wednesday, January } 27, 2010 at 12:15:13 PM. } } realname - Susan C. Van Horn } Email - susan.vanhorn-at-sunysb.edu } EDUCATION - Graduate College } LOCATION - Stony Brook } SUBJECT_OF_QUESTION - myelinated axons } QUESTION - i am having trouble with myelinated axons essentially } dropping out - no electron dense showing when view with the TEM and } even the stained thick sections show a drop out of stain......it } doesn't seem to matter if it is brain, spinal cord, optic nerve } samples.....could it be a pH problem??? with fix or buffer?? - i am } assured that the pH is checked but one never knows - i just have } never seen this before.....any suggestions??? } thanks } sue } -- Philip Oshel Microscopy Facility Supervisor Biology Department 024C Brooks Hall Central Michigan University Mt. Pleasant, MI 48859 (989) 774-3576
==============================Original Headers============================== 3, 23 -- From oshel1pe-at-cmich.edu Wed Jan 27 14:39:16 2010 3, 23 -- Received: from ob4.cmich.edu (ob4.cmich.edu [141.209.20.25]) 3, 23 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0RKdGr5021423 3, 23 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:39:16 -0600 3, 23 -- Received: from egatea.central.cmich.local ([141.209.15.74]) 3, 23 -- by ob4.cmich.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id o0RKdFRI001945 3, 23 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 15:39:15 -0500 3, 23 -- Received: from [141.209.160.249] ([141.209.160.249]) by egatea.central.cmich.local with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); 3, 23 -- Wed, 27 Jan 2010 15:39:15 -0500 3, 23 -- Mime-Version: 1.0 3, 23 -- Message-Id: {a06240813c786540929c0-at-[141.209.160.249]} 3, 23 -- Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 15:39:10 -0500 3, 23 -- To: Microscopy-at-microscopy.com 3, 23 -- From: Philip Oshel {oshel1pe-at-cmich.edu} 3, 23 -- Subject: myelinated axons not staining TEM 3, 23 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" 3, 23 -- X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Jan 2010 20:39:15.0399 (UTC) FILETIME=[CA70FD70:01CA9F90] 3, 23 -- X-Bayes-Prob: 0.0001 (Score -0.5, tokens from: -at--at-RPTN, default) 3, 23 -- X-Spam-Score: -4.40 () [Hold at 6.00] L_EXCH_MF,RDNS_NONE,Bayes(0.0001,-0.5) 3, 23 -- X-CanIt-Geo: ip=141.209.15.74; country=US; region=MI; city=Mount Pleasant; postalcode=48859; latitude=43.5647; longitude=-84.8473; metrocode=513; areacode=989; http://maps.google.com/maps?q=43.5647,-84.8473&z=6 3, 23 -- X-CanItPRO-Stream: default 3, 23 -- X-Canit-Stats-ID: 26770150 - 9cf4f9ab6266 - 20100127 3, 23 -- X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) on 141.209.20.25 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
We provided a Philips EM 300 as set dressing to the small-screen version of The Andromeda Strain. I've never managed to see the whole thing through to find out how (or if) they used/abused it.
Darcy Kehler Sr. Lab Supervisor, Biology | Faculty of Natural and Applied Sciences Trinity Western University | p: 604.888.7511 ext. 3249 Langley, BC, Canada, V2Y 1Y1
-----Original Message----- X-from: george.theodossiou-at-st-annes.ox.ac.uk [mailto:george.theodossiou-at-st-annes.ox.ac.uk] Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 12:43 PM To: Darcy Kehler
There is also an orange column TEM in the TV series Dexter. When he's in his little lab. I too have been bored by TV and movies.
More TEM's in movies I say....actually how bout an old VG HB501. I know the one here has more character and versatility than some leading actors and actresses out there and it works for free. The microscopist on the other hand will need food, drink and board.
________________________________________ X-from: StevenLe-at-BaylorHealth.edu [StevenLe-at-BaylorHealth.edu] Sent: 27 January 2010 20:08 To: George Theodossiou
I saw them as well. I thought one looked very similar to the FEI Technai series, and the other I can't remember the name of, but it has the smoked plastic around the column.
Steve Lee Chief Technologist Electron Microscopy Laboratory Baylor University Medical Center 3500 Gaston Ave Dallas, TX 75246 ( 214.820.3302 Ê 214.820.4110 ( stevenle-at-baylorhealth.edu
-----Original Message----- X-from: TindallR-at-missouri.edu [mailto:TindallR-at-missouri.edu] Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 1:57 PM To: Lee, Steven
I am pretty sure I saw it too. At least a very TEM-like column.
Randy Tindall Senior EM Specialist Electron Microscopy Core Facility---We Do Small Well! W125 Veterinary Medicine University of Missouri Columbia, MO 65211 Tel: (573) 882-8304 Fax: (573) 884-2227 Email: tindallr-at-missouri.edu Web: http://www.emc.missouri.edu On-line calendar: http://biotech.rnet.missouri.edu/cgi-bin/Calcium310.pl?Op=Splash&Amount=Week&NavType=Both&Type=TimePlan Sons of Norway: http://www.sofn.com
-----Original Message----- X-from: jae5-at-lehigh.edu [mailto:jae5-at-lehigh.edu] Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 1:50 PM To: Tindall, Randy D.
I know that some people collect sightings of electron microscopes in movies. Am I the only person who was so bored by Avatar that I spotted a TEM (at least one, it might even have been two - I will have to wait for the cable release to be sure) in one of the scenes in the lab?
-- ........... Alwyn Eades Department of Materials Science and Engineering Lehigh University 5 East Packer Avenue Bethlehem Pennsylvania 18015-3195 Phone 610 758 4231 Fax 610 758 4244 jae5-at-lehigh.edu
==============================Original Headers============================== 4, 21 -- From jae5-at-lehigh.edu Wed Jan 27 13:49:17 2010 4, 21 -- Received: from rain.cc.lehigh.edu (rain.cc.lehigh.edu [128.180.2.160]) 4, 21 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0RJnHgF004470 4, 21 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 13:49:17 -0600 4, 21 -- Received: from [127.0.0.1] (Dyn055026.mat.Lehigh.EDU [128.180.55.26]) 4, 21 -- (authenticated bits=0) 4, 21 -- by rain.cc.lehigh.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id o0RJnHaM030241 4, 21 -- (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) 4, 21 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:49:17 -0500 4, 21 -- Message-ID: {4B6098BC.1030306-at-lehigh.edu} 4, 21 -- Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:49:16 -0500 4, 21 -- From: Alwyn Eades {jae5-at-lehigh.edu} 4, 21 -- Organization: Lehigh University 4, 21 -- User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) 4, 21 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 4, 21 -- To: "MicroscopyListserver (E-mail)" {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 4, 21 -- Subject: TEM in Avatar 4, 21 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed 4, 21 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 4, 21 -- X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.3 at rain.cc.lehigh.edu 4, 21 -- X-Virus-Status: Clean ==============================End of - Headers==============================
==============================Original Headers============================== 16, 33 -- From TindallR-at-missouri.edu Wed Jan 27 13:51:47 2010 16, 33 -- Received: from mxnip01-missouri-out.um.umsystem.edu (mxnip01-missouri-out.um.umsystem.edu [209.106.229.53]) 16, 33 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0RJpkHo008451 16, 33 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 13:51:46 -0600 16, 33 -- X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true 16, 33 -- X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ag4FAKYoYEvRauUp/2dsb2JhbACcOq9qAQmFFIggAoI6DYFwBI1q 16, 33 -- Received: from unknown (HELO um-nsmtpout1.um.umsystem.edu) ([209.106.229.41]) 16, 33 -- by mxnip01-missouri-out.um.umsystem.edu with ESMTP; 27 Jan 2010 13:51:46 -0600 16, 33 -- Received: from UM-THUB01.um.umsystem.edu ([209.106.230.181]) by um-nsmtpout1.um.umsystem.edu with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); 16, 33 -- Wed, 27 Jan 2010 13:51:46 -0600 16, 33 -- Received: from um-email06.um.umsystem.edu ([169.254.1.171]) by 16, 33 -- UM-THUB01.um.umsystem.edu ([209.106.230.181]) with mapi; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 16, 33 -- 13:51:45 -0600 16, 33 -- From: "Tindall, Randy D." {TindallR-at-missouri.edu} 16, 33 -- To: "jae5-at-lehigh.edu" {jae5-at-lehigh.edu} 16, 33 -- CC: "microscopy-at-microscopy.com" {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 16, 33 -- Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 13:51:44 -0600 16, 33 -- Subject: RE: [Microscopy] TEM in Avatar 16, 33 -- Thread-Topic: [Microscopy] TEM in Avatar 16, 33 -- Thread-Index: Acqfifamw0//KEDBTIyePqP4J4N8EgAABf9Q 16, 33 -- Message-ID: {9422E68616A7C648A281C0B5CD22A4B8224DFE5732-at-UM-EMAIL06.um.umsystem.edu} 16, 33 -- References: {201001271950.o0RJoI9T005999-at-ns.microscopy.com} 16, 33 -- In-Reply-To: {201001271950.o0RJoI9T005999-at-ns.microscopy.com} 16, 33 -- Accept-Language: en-US 16, 33 -- Content-Language: en-US 16, 33 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: 16, 33 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 16, 33 -- acceptlanguage: en-US 16, 33 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 16, 33 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 16, 33 -- X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Jan 2010 19:51:46.0189 (UTC) FILETIME=[282E0BD0:01CA9F8A] 16, 33 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 16, 33 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0RJpkHo008451 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
********************************************************************** This e-mail may contain confidential and/or privileged information. This information is intended only for the use of the individual(s) and entity(ies) to whom it is addressed. If you are the intended recipient, further disclosures are prohibited without proper authorization. If you are not the intended recipient (or have received this e-mail in error) please notify the sender immediately and destroy this e-mail. Any unauthorized copying, disclosure or distribution of the material in this e-mail is strictly forbidden and possibly a violation of federal or state law and regulations. Baylor Health Care System, its subsidiaries, and affiliates hereby claim all applicable privileges related to this information.
==============================Original Headers============================== 26, 30 -- From StevenLe-at-BaylorHealth.edu Wed Jan 27 14:01:39 2010 26, 30 -- Received: from bhdappagnt02.baylorhealth.edu (mailhost1.baylorhealth.edu [65.248.93.160]) 26, 30 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0RK1dZ5001655 26, 30 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:01:39 -0600 26, 30 -- Received: from BHDAEXIMS02.bhcs.pvt ([10.100.14.73]) 26, 30 -- by bhdappagnt02.baylorhealth.edu (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o0RK1cIq009657 26, 30 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:01:38 -0600 26, 30 -- X-TM-IMSS-Message-ID: {43ec474a000909c1-at-bhcs.pvt} 26, 30 -- Received: from BHDAEXHT01.bhcs.pvt ([10.5.12.193]) by bhcs.pvt ([10.100.14.73]) with ESMTP (TREND IMSS SMTP Service 7.0; TLS: TLSv1/SSLv3,128bits,RC4-MD5) id 43ec474a000909c1 ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:01:38 -0600 26, 30 -- Received: from BHDAEXVM32.bhcs.pvt ([10.5.3.122]) by BHDAEXHT01.bhcs.pvt 26, 30 -- ([10.5.12.193]) with mapi; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:01:38 -0600 26, 30 -- From: "Lee, Steven" {StevenLe-at-BaylorHealth.edu} 26, 30 -- To: "'microscopy-at-microscopy.com'" {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 26, 30 -- Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:01:36 -0600 26, 30 -- Subject: RE: [Microscopy] RE: TEM in Avatar 26, 30 -- Thread-Topic: [Microscopy] RE: TEM in Avatar 26, 30 -- Thread-Index: AcqfiuRaMocKZluITmOpXkcRArVSTwAACFAg 26, 30 -- Message-ID: {492DD4D34D5DC5489E59D73B0506681C11CFDE582B-at-BHDAEXVM32.bhcs.pvt} 26, 30 -- References: {201001271956.o0RJuxDo021355-at-ns.microscopy.com} 26, 30 -- In-Reply-To: {201001271956.o0RJuxDo021355-at-ns.microscopy.com} 26, 30 -- Accept-Language: en-US 26, 30 -- Content-Language: en-US 26, 30 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: 26, 30 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 26, 30 -- acceptlanguage: en-US 26, 30 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" 26, 30 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 26, 30 -- X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=1.12.8161:2.4.5,1.2.40,4.0.166 definitions=2010-01-27_10:2010-01-20,2010-01-27,2010-01-27 signatures=0 26, 30 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 26, 30 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0RK1dZ5001655 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
==============================Original Headers============================== 34, 30 -- From george.theodossiou-at-st-annes.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 27 14:37:08 2010 34, 30 -- Received: from relay1.mail.ox.ac.uk (relay1.mail.ox.ac.uk [129.67.1.165]) 34, 30 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0RKb7Tx017677 34, 30 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:37:07 -0600 34, 30 -- Received: from smtp2.nexus.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.154.136] helo=exht02.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk) 34, 30 -- by relay1.mail.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.71) 34, 30 -- (envelope-from {george.theodossiou-at-st-annes.ox.ac.uk} ) 34, 30 -- id 1NaEdO-0002Da-5L 34, 30 -- for Microscopy-at-microscopy.com; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 20:37:06 +0000 34, 30 -- Received: from EXMBX05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk ([169.254.2.79]) by 34, 30 -- exht02.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.154.53]) with mapi; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 20:37:06 34, 30 -- +0000 34, 30 -- From: George Theodossiou {george.theodossiou-at-st-annes.ox.ac.uk} 34, 30 -- To: "Microscopy-at-microscopy.com" {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 34, 30 -- Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 20:37:06 +0000 34, 30 -- Subject: RE: [Microscopy] TEM in Avatar 34, 30 -- Thread-Topic: [Microscopy] TEM in Avatar 34, 30 -- Thread-Index: AcqfjIWnfP3LptlxT82+vaUD4DCREwAAuNZn 34, 30 -- Message-ID: {513007C23A33014CA94A4F21DAAF7903115009C767-at-EXMBX05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk} 34, 30 -- References: {201001272008.o0RK8evA016253-at-ns.microscopy.com} 34, 30 -- In-Reply-To: {201001272008.o0RK8evA016253-at-ns.microscopy.com} 34, 30 -- Accept-Language: en-US, en-GB 34, 30 -- Content-Language: en-GB 34, 30 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: 34, 30 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 34, 30 -- acceptlanguage: en-US, en-GB 34, 30 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" 34, 30 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 34, 30 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 34, 30 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0RKb7Tx017677 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
==============================Original Headers============================== 49, 33 -- From kehler-at-twu.ca Wed Jan 27 14:53:51 2010 49, 33 -- Received: from lnxms1.twu.ca (lnxms1.twu.ca [64.114.134.115]) 49, 33 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0RKrpCw015100 49, 33 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:53:51 -0600 49, 33 -- Received: from lnxms1.twu.ca (lnxms1.twu.ca [127.0.0.1]) 49, 33 -- by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 2C6004B0417 49, 33 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 12:53:50 -0800 (PST) 49, 33 -- Received: from ES1.twu.ca (es1.twu.ca [10.10.118.48]) 49, 33 -- by lnxms1.twu.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84A3C4B02EF 49, 33 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 12:53:49 -0800 (PST) 49, 33 -- Received: from ES2.twu.ca ([10.10.118.65]) by ES1.twu.ca with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); 49, 33 -- Wed, 27 Jan 2010 12:53:49 -0800 49, 33 -- Received: from ES2.twu.ca ([fe80::18e3:7049:2230:c825]) by ES2.twu.ca 49, 33 -- ([fe80::18e3:7049:2230:c825%10]) with mapi; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 12:53:49 -0800 49, 33 -- From: Darcy Kehler {kehler-at-twu.ca} 49, 33 -- To: "Microscopy-at-microscopy.com" {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 49, 33 -- Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 12:53:47 -0800 49, 33 -- Subject: RE: [Microscopy] RE: TEM in Avatar 49, 33 -- Thread-Topic: [Microscopy] RE: TEM in Avatar 49, 33 -- Thread-Index: AcqfkVLe5oZRaDKYQD2ZhLk525UdhAAAFBTg 49, 33 -- Message-ID: {1CF85F97D668F840A5A5C7370C4BBCDE75D6C504FF-at-ES2.twu.ca} 49, 33 -- References: {201001272043.o0RKh08i000371-at-ns.microscopy.com} 49, 33 -- In-Reply-To: {201001272043.o0RKh08i000371-at-ns.microscopy.com} 49, 33 -- Accept-Language: en-US 49, 33 -- Content-Language: en-US 49, 33 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: 49, 33 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 49, 33 -- acceptlanguage: en-US 49, 33 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" 49, 33 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 49, 33 -- X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Jan 2010 20:53:49.0788 (UTC) FILETIME=[D39E29C0:01CA9F92] 49, 33 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 49, 33 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0RKrpCw015100 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
There was a delay in this position being available for on-line application but that has now been corrected. We apologize to those of you that went searching for this position and could not find it at the at the FSU site listed below.
Job Title: Advanced Analytical TEM Laboratory Support Scientist Job ID: 31065 Location: National High Magnetic Field Laboratory at Florida State University, Tallahassee, FL
In conjunction with the recent purchase of a new JEM-ARM200F Atomic Resolution Analytical TEM we have an opening for a TEM Laboratory Support Scientist.
Qualifications: Advanced University degree(Master's or higher) and at least four years of demonstrated experience.
Responsibilities:
*Interacting, assisting and training users for routine operation of the TEM/STEM microscopes and related sample preparation equipment. *Performing routine maintenance and essential repair of the microscopes and related sample preparation equipment (major equipment is under service contract). *Managing routine operation, including logs, bookkeeping, billing, maintenance records, inventory, and consumables purchases. *Making recommendations and assist in the purchase of new equipment. *Participating in the microscopy community and related research activities. *Preparing monthly and annual reports concerning the TEM Laboratory and participate in all required review meetings. *Providing outreach and tours for the general public.
More information and the on-line application (Job ID 31065) is available at https://jobs.fsu.edu The NHMFL web site can be found at: http://www.magnet.fsu.edu/ A partial listing of existing analytical facilities at NHMFL can be found at: http://www.magnet.fsu.edu/magnettechnology/research/materials/microanalysi s/index.html
==============================Original Headers============================== 7, 29 -- From lee-at-asc.magnet.fsu.edu Wed Jan 27 15:46:13 2010 7, 29 -- Received: from zm1.magnet.fsu.edu (zm1.magnet.fsu.edu [146.201.250.62]) 7, 29 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0RLkDa3032506 7, 29 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 15:46:13 -0600 7, 29 -- Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) 7, 29 -- by zm1.magnet.fsu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F942618099 7, 29 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 16:46:13 -0500 (EST) 7, 29 -- X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zm1.magnet.fsu.edu 7, 29 -- Received: from zm1.magnet.fsu.edu ([127.0.0.1]) 7, 29 -- by localhost (zm1.magnet.fsu.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) 7, 29 -- with ESMTP id Dth1VfNb9kTW for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; 7, 29 -- Wed, 27 Jan 2010 16:46:05 -0500 (EST) 7, 29 -- Received: from zm1.magnet.fsu.edu (zm1.magnet.fsu.edu [146.201.250.62]) 7, 29 -- by zm1.magnet.fsu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CE7761809A 7, 29 -- for {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 16:46:05 -0500 (EST) 7, 29 -- From: "Peter Lee" {lee-at-asc.magnet.fsu.edu} 7, 29 -- To: {Microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 7, 29 -- Subject: Updated: TEM Laboratory Support Scientist Position Open at FSU 7, 29 -- Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 16:46:05 -0500 (EST) 7, 29 -- Message-ID: {00c201ca9f9a$19dacc70$4d906550$-at-magnet.fsu.edu} 7, 29 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 7, 29 -- Content-Type: text/plain; 7, 29 -- charset="us-ascii" 7, 29 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 7, 29 -- X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 7, 29 -- X-Mailer: Zimbra 5.0.20_GA_3127.RHEL5_64 (ZimbraConnectorForOutlook/5.0.3191.20) 7, 29 -- Thread-Index: AcqVVD6+M/lb51e4TV6SHCXDb38uqw== 7, 29 -- Content-Language: en-us 7, 29 -- X-Originating-IP: [146.201.213.181] ==============================End of - Headers==============================
Someone mentioned tactile feedback in hand-cranked ice-cream making. One of the fundamental correlations in our serious investigations of the thermodynamics of ice-cream making was between pulse-rate of the cranker and the viscosity of the ice-cream... leading to our knowing when to stop cranking and start eating!
Another fundamental property of good ice-cream is called "over-run" (as I remember, though WHY it's called this I don't recall!). Any way, it's the incorporation of air bubbles in the product, making it feel "creamier" on the tongue. When you unfortunately can't eat all the product immediately and have to try to save some in the freezer compartment of your refrigerator, it's never as good. The crystals grow and it may also lose the air bubbles, making it far less luxurious than it was right after it was made.
I'm not sure how this is different than the fact that on the pseudo-milk-shake machines in fast-food restaurants there is a control to determine how much air to put into the shake. I noticed many years ago that my shakes were getting lighter in weight ... and abandoned that as a complete offense to my sense of right and wrong! If proper milk shakes are made from whole, rich ice cream and good whole milk, the air gets in them from the frothing action of the "turbine" ... and that's OK!
My patron saints in this whole area are Escoffier, Brillat Savrin, Julia Child and Harold McGee, whose book, "On Food and Cooking: The Science and Lore of the Kitchen" is irreplaceable!
Donald L. Gibbon
-----Original Message----- X-from: paul_hazelton-at-umanitoba.ca [mailto:paul_hazelton-at-umanitoba.ca] Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 10:38 AM To: Gibbon, Donald L.
Justin
Escoffier said that a recipe is only a list of ideas. So no, science has not impacted on my cooking. I still have some great successes in the kitchen, and some truly magnificent failures. However, science sure
has had an impact on my wine making, and for the better.
paul
-- Paul R. Hazelton, PhD Viral Gastroenteritis Study Group University of Manitoba Department of Medical Microbiology 511 Basic Medical Sciences Building 745 William Avenue Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada, R3E 0J9 e-mail: paul_hazelton-at-umanitoba.ca paulhazelton-at-mts.net Phone: 204-789-3313 (w); 204-489-6924 (h) Cell: 204-781-6982 Fax: 204-789-3926
==============================Original Headers============================== 6, 21 -- From paul_hazelton-at-umanitoba.ca Wed Jan 27 09:27:32 2010 6, 21 -- Received: from electra.cc.umanitoba.ca (electra.cc.umanitoba.ca [130.179.16.34]) 6, 21 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0RFRVJa018266 6, 21 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 09:27:32 -0600 6, 21 -- Received: from [140.193.25.69] (basic069.medmb.umanitoba.ca [140.193.25.69]) 6, 21 -- (user=hazeltn mech=CRAM-MD5 bits=0) 6, 21 -- by electra.cc.umanitoba.ca (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o0RFRTL6003041; 6, 21 -- Wed, 27 Jan 2010 09:27:30 -0600 (CST) 6, 21 -- Message-ID: {4B605B62.8000601-at-umanitoba.ca} 6, 21 -- Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 09:27:30 -0600 6, 21 -- From: paul r hazelton {paul_hazelton-at-umanitoba.ca} 6, 21 -- User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) 6, 21 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 6, 21 -- To: kraftpiano-at-gmail.com 6, 21 -- CC: Microscopy Listserver {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 6, 21 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] Liquid Nitrogen Safety 6, 21 -- References: {201001271438.o0REcb2n016284-at-ns.microscopy.com} 6, 21 -- In-Reply-To: {201001271438.o0REcb2n016284-at-ns.microscopy.com} 6, 21 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed 6, 21 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 6, 21 -- X-DCC-UofM-Metrics: electra; whitelist ==============================End of - Headers==============================
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==============================Original Headers============================== 20, 27 -- From donald.gibbon-at-matcoinc.com Wed Jan 27 15:49:15 2010 20, 27 -- Received: from smtp1.valmont.com (smtp1.valmont.com [72.165.239.151]) 20, 27 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0RLnDDZ003653 20, 27 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 15:49:15 -0600 20, 27 -- X-TM-IMSS-Message-ID: {00e0e5bb00006104-at-smtp1.valmont.com} 20, 27 -- Received: from valmailbh1.na.valmont.com ([172.16.0.51]) by smtp1.valmont.com ([192.168.123.151]) with ESMTP (TREND IMSS SMTP Service 7.0) id 00e0e5bb00006104 ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 15:47:50 -0600 20, 27 -- Received: from valmail.na.valmont.com ([172.16.1.35]) by valmailbh1.na.valmont.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); 20, 27 -- Wed, 27 Jan 2010 15:47:52 -0600 20, 27 -- X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 20, 27 -- Content-class: urn:content-classes:message 20, 27 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 20, 27 -- Content-Type: text/plain; 20, 27 -- charset="us-ascii" 20, 27 -- Subject: RE: [Microscopy] Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety 20, 27 -- Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 15:47:36 -0600 20, 27 -- Message-ID: {AE9049B5C6BD064BA3F0B94A1F985BA701C2FEDA-at-valmail.na.valmont.com} 20, 27 -- In-Reply-To: {201001271537.o0RFbrwL020199-at-ns.microscopy.com} 20, 27 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: 20, 27 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 20, 27 -- Thread-Topic: [Microscopy] Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety 20, 27 -- Thread-Index: AcqfajhHNfMZT1PbQRGgdawMDT8T1QALceGg 20, 27 -- References: {201001271537.o0RFbrwL020199-at-ns.microscopy.com} 20, 27 -- From: "Gibbon, Donald L." {donald.gibbon-at-matcoinc.com} 20, 27 -- To: {paul_hazelton-at-umanitoba.ca} , {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 20, 27 -- X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Jan 2010 21:47:52.0501 (UTC) FILETIME=[606CE650:01CA9F9A] 20, 27 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 20, 27 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0RLnDDZ003653 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
This Question/Comment was submitted to the Microscopy Listserver using the WWW based Form at http://www.microscopy.com/MLFormMail.html --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Remember this posting is most likely not from a Subscriber, so when replying please copy both rigler-at-ett.bme.hu as well as the MIcroscopy Listserver ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Email: rigler-at-ett.bme.hu Name: Daniel Rigler
Organization: engineer, failure analysis expert
Title-Subject: [Filtered] SEM - crossover
Message: Hi!
Can somebody please tell me a little bit about how a SEM is capable of displaying an image of the crossover? I use an FEI Inspect S50 microscope, and wonder what is the detection mechanism.
This Question/Comment was submitted to the Microscopy Listserver using the WWW based Form at http://www.microscopy.com/MLFormMail.html --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Remember this posting is most likely not from a Subscriber, so when replying please copy both analytic-at-rawbw.com as well as the MIcroscopy Listserver ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Email: analytic-at-rawbw.com Name: Margo
Organization: MSA
Title-Subject: [Filtered] High School SEM
Message: I would like to find out if anyone knows anything about the SEM at Montpelier High School Montpelier, Vermont ref: Montpelier is benefiting from a confluence of circumstances, ... the donation of a scanning electron microscope (SEM) from IBM of Essex Junction. ... IBM was "retiring" this particular microscope and donated it to Montpelier High School ...
The University of Manchester Faculty of Life Science EM facility is pleased to announce the installation of a 300 KeV FEG cryo-transmission electron microscope funded by the Wellcome Trust. The microscope is available for use by University of Manchester staff and external collaborators who have projects that would benefit from collection of high resolution electron microscope images at cryogenic temperatures. The microscope is equipped with a 4k x 4k Gatan USC 4000 camera and a post column energy filter with a 2k x 2k CCD camera. A variety of software packages are available, both on the microscope for data generation and off the microscope for data analysis. These include tomographic packages: FEI’s 3D Explore, SerialEM with IMOD and a variety of single particle packages, including: SPIDER Appion and MRC. We are continuously reviewing the installed software, so we hope to be able to offer the most up to date acquisition and microscope scripting potential. The FLS electron microscope facility is also able to offer technical support in order that users are able get the best data from their samples. If you are interested in using the Polara then please visit http://manchesterpolara.org.uk, or email polara-at-manchester.ac.uk
Sincerely, Alex -- Dr. Aleksandr Mironov MD, PhD Experimental Officer D.1527, M.Smith Building EM Core Facility, Faculty of Life Sciences University of Manchester Oxford Road Manchester M13 9PT UK
-My patron saints in this whole area are Escoffier, Brillat Savrin, Julia -Child and Harold McGee, whose book, "On Food and Cooking: The Science -and Lore of the Kitchen" is irreplaceable!
Let me add that Arthur Grosser's "Cookbook Decoder or Culinary Alchemy Explained" is an excellent starting place for understanding the chemistry behind cooking.
On the ice cream front, several years ago I was at the Ohio State Fair (collecting feather and hair reference samples) and someone was trying to sell franchises for liquid N2 made ice cream. It didn't seem to me feasible to have the additional cost of LN2 added to the other cost in what appears in Akron, to be a saturated market. Maybe that's why I'm working for someone else.....
stay safe....... Frank
donald.gibbon-at-mat coinc.com To 01/27/2010 04:57 frank_karl-at-lincolnelectric.com PM cc
Subject Please respond to [Microscopy] Liquid Nitrogen donald.gibbon-at-mat Safety coinc.com
The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of America
Someone mentioned tactile feedback in hand-cranked ice-cream making. One of the fundamental correlations in our serious investigations of the thermodynamics of ice-cream making was between pulse-rate of the cranker and the viscosity of the ice-cream... leading to our knowing when to stop cranking and start eating!
Another fundamental property of good ice-cream is called "over-run" (as I remember, though WHY it's called this I don't recall!). Any way, it's the incorporation of air bubbles in the product, making it feel "creamier" on the tongue. When you unfortunately can't eat all the product immediately and have to try to save some in the freezer compartment of your refrigerator, it's never as good. The crystals grow and it may also lose the air bubbles, making it far less luxurious than it was right after it was made.
I'm not sure how this is different than the fact that on the pseudo-milk-shake machines in fast-food restaurants there is a control to determine how much air to put into the shake. I noticed many years ago that my shakes were getting lighter in weight ... and abandoned that as a complete offense to my sense of right and wrong! If proper milk shakes are made from whole, rich ice cream and good whole milk, the air gets in them from the frothing action of the "turbine" ... and that's OK!
My patron saints in this whole area are Escoffier, Brillat Savrin, Julia Child and Harold McGee, whose book, "On Food and Cooking: The Science and Lore of the Kitchen" is irreplaceable!
Donald L. Gibbon
-----Original Message----- X-from: paul_hazelton-at-umanitoba.ca [mailto:paul_hazelton-at-umanitoba.ca] Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 10:38 AM To: Gibbon, Donald L.
Justin
Escoffier said that a recipe is only a list of ideas. So no, science has not impacted on my cooking. I still have some great successes in the kitchen, and some truly magnificent failures. However, science sure
has had an impact on my wine making, and for the better.
paul
-- Paul R. Hazelton, PhD Viral Gastroenteritis Study Group University of Manitoba Department of Medical Microbiology 511 Basic Medical Sciences Building 745 William Avenue Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada, R3E 0J9 e-mail: paul_hazelton-at-umanitoba.ca paulhazelton-at-mts.net Phone: 204-789-3313 (w); 204-489-6924 (h) Cell: 204-781-6982 Fax: 204-789-3926
==============================Original Headers============================== 6, 21 -- From paul_hazelton-at-umanitoba.ca Wed Jan 27 09:27:32 2010 6, 21 -- Received: from electra.cc.umanitoba.ca (electra.cc.umanitoba.ca [130.179.16.34]) 6, 21 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0RFRVJa018266 6, 21 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 09:27:32 -0600 6, 21 -- Received: from [140.193.25.69] (basic069.medmb.umanitoba.ca [140.193.25.69]) 6, 21 -- (user=hazeltn mech=CRAM-MD5 bits=0) 6, 21 -- by electra.cc.umanitoba.ca (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o0RFRTL6003041; 6, 21 -- Wed, 27 Jan 2010 09:27:30 -0600 (CST) 6, 21 -- Message-ID: {4B605B62.8000601-at-umanitoba.ca} 6, 21 -- Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 09:27:30 -0600 6, 21 -- From: paul r hazelton {paul_hazelton-at-umanitoba.ca} 6, 21 -- User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) 6, 21 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 6, 21 -- To: kraftpiano-at-gmail.com 6, 21 -- CC: Microscopy Listserver {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 6, 21 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] Liquid Nitrogen Safety 6, 21 -- References: {201001271438.o0REcb2n016284-at-ns.microscopy.com} 6, 21 -- In-Reply-To: {201001271438.o0REcb2n016284-at-ns.microscopy.com} 6, 21 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed 6, 21 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 6, 21 -- X-DCC-UofM-Metrics: electra; whitelist ==============================End of - Headers==============================
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==============================Original Headers============================== 20, 27 -- From donald.gibbon-at-matcoinc.com Wed Jan 27 15:49:15 2010 20, 27 -- Received: from smtp1.valmont.com (smtp1.valmont.com [72.165.239.151]) 20, 27 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0RLnDDZ003653 20, 27 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 15:49:15 -0600 20, 27 -- X-TM-IMSS-Message-ID: {00e0e5bb00006104-at-smtp1.valmont.com} 20, 27 -- Received: from valmailbh1.na.valmont.com ([172.16.0.51]) by smtp1.valmont.com ([192.168.123.151]) with ESMTP (TREND IMSS SMTP Service 7.0) id 00e0e5bb00006104 ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 15:47:50 -0600 20, 27 -- Received: from valmail.na.valmont.com ([172.16.1.35]) by valmailbh1.na.valmont.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); 20, 27 -- Wed, 27 Jan 2010 15:47:52 -0600 20, 27 -- X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 20, 27 -- Content-class: urn:content-classes:message 20, 27 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 20, 27 -- Content-Type: text/plain; 20, 27 -- charset="us-ascii" 20, 27 -- Subject: RE: [Microscopy] Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety 20, 27 -- Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 15:47:36 -0600 20, 27 -- Message-ID: {AE9049B5C6BD064BA3F0B94A1F985BA701C2FEDA-at-valmail.na.valmont.com} 20, 27 -- In-Reply-To: {201001271537.o0RFbrwL020199-at-ns.microscopy.com} 20, 27 -- X-MS-Has-Attach: 20, 27 -- X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 20, 27 -- Thread-Topic: [Microscopy] Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety 20, 27 -- Thread-Index: AcqfajhHNfMZT1PbQRGgdawMDT8T1QALceGg 20, 27 -- References: {201001271537.o0RFbrwL020199-at-ns.microscopy.com} 20, 27 -- From: "Gibbon, Donald L." {donald.gibbon-at-matcoinc.com} 20, 27 -- To: {paul_hazelton-at-umanitoba.ca} , {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 20, 27 -- X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Jan 2010 21:47:52.0501 (UTC) FILETIME= [606CE650:01CA9F9A] 20, 27 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 20, 27 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0RLnDDZ003653 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
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==============================Original Headers============================== 41, 22 -- From frank_karl-at-lincolnelectric.com Thu Jan 28 06:29:34 2010 41, 22 -- Received: from lincolnelectric.com (smtp1.lincolnelectric.com [64.109.211.114]) 41, 22 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0SCTYM3022865 41, 22 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 06:29:34 -0600 41, 22 -- In-Reply-To: {201001272157.o0RLvF62024003-at-ns.microscopy.com} 41, 22 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] Liquid Nitrogen Safety 41, 22 -- To: donald.gibbon-at-matcoinc.com, Microscopy-at-microscopy.com 41, 22 -- X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.5 November 30, 2005 41, 22 -- Message-ID: {OF7090E770.A903697C-ON852576B9.0043E055-852576B9.00449CBC-at-lincolnelectric.com} 41, 22 -- Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 07:29:25 -0500 41, 22 -- From: Frank_Karl-at-lincolnelectric.com 41, 22 -- X-MIMETrack: CD-MIME by Router on Notescom1/Lincoln Electric/US(Release 8.0.1|February 41, 22 -- 07, 2008) at 01/28/2010 07:29:27 AM, 41, 22 -- CD-MIME complete at 01/28/2010 07:29:27 AM, 41, 22 -- Itemize by Router on Notescom1/Lincoln Electric/US(Release 8.0.1|February 41, 22 -- 07, 2008) at 01/28/2010 07:29:27 AM, 41, 22 -- Serialize by Router on Notescom1/Lincoln Electric/US(Release 8.0.1|February 41, 22 -- 07, 2008) at 01/28/2010 07:29:27 AM, 41, 22 -- Serialize complete at 01/28/2010 07:29:27 AM 41, 22 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 41, 22 -- Content-Type: text/plain; 41, 22 -- charset="US-ASCII" ==============================End of - Headers==============================
I would like to hear your experiences on various Peltier Stages for wet applications (pros/con, dos/donts). Also, I would appreciate any documentation/procedure for VP mode (air/H2O) for an CZ EVO40 XVP. You can respond directly to me to save bandwidth for the list
Best
Erman Bengu
================================= Erman Bengu
Assistant Professor of Chemistry Department of Chemistry Bilkent University
Mailing Address: Bilkent University, Department of Chemistry, 06800, Bilkent, Ankara Turkey
Gee, now that we're in to it, how can we forget Paul Bocuse or Jacques Pepin.
Although I'm not sure either would add liquid nitrogen to their kitchens. But then, before this week, neither would I have. Just can't wait to get the HIV group's students next summer.....(everyone can now insert an in evil laugh at this spot).
paul
-- Paul R. Hazelton, PhD Viral Gastroenteritis Study Group University of Manitoba Department of Medical Microbiology 511 Basic Medical Sciences Building 745 William Avenue Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada, R3E 0J9 e-mail: paul_hazelton-at-umanitoba.ca paulhazelton-at-mts.net Phone: 204-789-3313 (w); 204-489-6924 (h) Cell: 204-781-6982 Fax: 204-789-3926
==============================Original Headers============================== 6, 21 -- From paul_hazelton-at-umanitoba.ca Thu Jan 28 08:45:48 2010 6, 21 -- Received: from electra.cc.umanitoba.ca (electra.cc.umanitoba.ca [130.179.16.34]) 6, 21 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0SEjmpu023483 6, 21 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 08:45:48 -0600 6, 21 -- Received: from [140.193.25.69] (basic069.medmb.umanitoba.ca [140.193.25.69]) 6, 21 -- (user=hazeltn mech=CRAM-MD5 bits=0) 6, 21 -- by electra.cc.umanitoba.ca (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o0SEjir7006878; 6, 21 -- Thu, 28 Jan 2010 08:45:44 -0600 (CST) 6, 21 -- Message-ID: {4B61A319.40606-at-umanitoba.ca} 6, 21 -- Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 08:45:45 -0600 6, 21 -- From: paul r hazelton {paul_hazelton-at-umanitoba.ca} 6, 21 -- User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) 6, 21 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 6, 21 -- To: Frank_Karl-at-lincolnelectric.com 6, 21 -- CC: Microscopy Listserver {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 6, 21 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety 6, 21 -- References: {201001281230.o0SCUp0g025510-at-ns.microscopy.com} 6, 21 -- In-Reply-To: {201001281230.o0SCUp0g025510-at-ns.microscopy.com} 6, 21 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed 6, 21 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 6, 21 -- X-DCC-UofM-Metrics: electra; whitelist ==============================End of - Headers==============================
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DUTIES: An experienced Electron Microscopist is required to plan, conduct, and provide the technical management of the electron microscopy portions of USAMRIID studies and in the interpretation of ultrastructural changes in study materials at the cellular and tissue levels. Most studies involve research on the pathology of bacterial and viral pathogens and toxins of interest to the military. A successful candidate must demonstrate the ability to provide expertise in the planning and execution of electron microscopy methodologies and the ability to interpret normal and abnormal ultrastructural tissue and cellular changes related to a variety of conditions. The candidate must have excellent written and oral communication skills, strong project management skills, and the ability to work cooperatively in a collaborative, cross-functional team environment.
URL = http://acpol.army.mil/employment/
==============================Original Headers============================== 8, 11 -- From zaluzec-at-microscopy.com Thu Jan 28 09:10:05 2010 8, 11 -- Received: from [206.69.208.22] (mac22.zaluzec.com [206.69.208.22]) 8, 11 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0SFA4mk007255 8, 11 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 09:10:05 -0600 8, 11 -- Mime-Version: 1.0 8, 11 -- Message-Id: {p06240801c787587edffb-at-[206.69.208.22]} 8, 11 -- Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 09:10:03 -0600 8, 11 -- To: microscopy-at-microscopy.com 8, 11 -- From: Ronnie.Reyes-at-Amedd.Army.Mil (by way of MicroscopyListserver) 8, 11 -- Subject: viaWWW: JOB ANNOUNCEMENT (POSITION: MICROBIOLOGIST) USAMRIID 8, 11 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" ==============================End of - Headers==============================
I like OnCore Scheduler. It was developed in-house, but is free for all. We use it for many of our rooms and 'scopes. http://demo.arl.arizona.edu It's easy to download, instal and customize. David
On Jan 26, 2010, at 1:51 PM, sawyert-at-science.oregonstate.edu wrote:
} } } } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of } America } To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver } On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } We are interested in setting up an electron scheduling calendar for } our } EM lab. Currently we have four microscopes and some sample preparation } tools users need to sign-up to use. FOM (fomnetworks.com) has been } suggested but I am wondering about other programs that might be } cheaper } or free and still offer similar benefits: scheduling, tracking beam } time } etc. } } Please offer any suggestions off line } } Thanks } Teresa } } } } } } } } -- } Teresa Sawyer } Electron Microscope Facility Manager } Oregon State University } 541-737-5245 } sawyert-at-science.oregonstate.edu } Cordely Hall 1078 } http://www.science.oregonstate.edu/bpp/EMfacility/index.htm } } } ==============================Original } Headers============================== } 10, 27 -- From sawyert-at-science.oregonstate.edu Tue Jan 26 14:48:06 } 2010 } 10, 27 -- Received: from smtp6.oregonstate.edu } (smtp6.oregonstate.edu [128.193.15.46]) } 10, 27 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP } id o0QKm6d8008721 } 10, 27 -- for {Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com} ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 } 14:48:06 -0600 } 10, 27 -- Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) } 10, 27 -- by smtp6.oregonstate.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id } 9138EC888B2 } 10, 27 -- for {Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com} ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 } 12:48:05 -0800 (PST) } 10, 27 -- X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at oregonstate.edu } 10, 27 -- Received: from smtp6.oregonstate.edu ([127.0.0.1]) } 10, 27 -- by localhost (smtp.oregonstate.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd- } new, port 10024) } 10, 27 -- with ESMTP id o8mmEtbcKtxb for {Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com} ; } 10, 27 -- Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:48:05 -0800 (PST) } 10, 27 -- Received: from frontend.science.oregonstate.edu } (mail.science.oregonstate.edu [128.193.224.69]) } 10, 27 -- by smtp6.oregonstate.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id } 5A994C88868 } 10, 27 -- for {Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com} ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 } 12:48:05 -0800 (PST) } 10, 27 -- Received: from [128.193.227.221] } (128-193-227-221.science.oregonstate.edu [128.193.227.221]) } 10, 27 -- by frontend.science.oregonstate.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP } id 5692AB3C183 } 10, 27 -- for {Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com} ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 } 12:48:05 -0800 (PST) } 10, 27 -- Message-ID: {4B5F5506.7090500-at-science.oregonstate.edu} } 10, 27 -- Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:48:06 -0800 } 10, 27 -- From: Teresa Sawyer {sawyert-at-science.oregonstate.edu} } 10, 27 -- User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) } 10, 27 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 } 10, 27 -- To: Microscopy Listserv {Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com} } 10, 27 -- Subject: electronic calendar } 10, 27 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed } 10, 27 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit } ==============================End of - } Headers============================== }
==============================Original Headers============================== 5, 22 -- From Elliott-at-arizona.edu Fri Jan 29 16:42:17 2010 5, 22 -- Received: from mailgator.email.arizona.edu (gremlin.email.arizona.edu [128.196.133.171]) 5, 22 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0TMgGwV012952 5, 22 -- for {MICROSCOPY-at-ns.microscopy.com} ; Fri, 29 Jan 2010 16:42:17 -0600 5, 22 -- Received: from mailgators_amavis (amavis3.email.arizona.edu [10.0.0.206]) 5, 22 -- by mailgator.email.arizona.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B6F654E4346 5, 22 -- for {MICROSCOPY-at-ns.microscopy.com} ; Fri, 29 Jan 2010 15:42:16 -0700 (MST) 5, 22 -- Received: from [150.135.145.126] (unknown [150.135.145.126]) 5, 22 -- by smtpgate.email.arizona.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4BB116FD66C 5, 22 -- for {MICROSCOPY-at-ns.microscopy.com} ; Fri, 29 Jan 2010 15:42:12 -0700 (MST) 5, 22 -- Message-Id: {B66ABA4A-04F9-4930-9801-C49F92DBBE97-at-arizona.edu} 5, 22 -- From: David Elliott {Elliott-at-arizona.edu} 5, 22 -- To: Microscopy ListServer {MICROSCOPY-at-ns.microscopy.com} 5, 22 -- In-Reply-To: {201001262051.o0QKpfjL012846-at-ns.microscopy.com} 5, 22 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes 5, 22 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 5, 22 -- Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) 5, 22 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] electronic calendar 5, 22 -- Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 15:42:10 -0700 5, 22 -- References: {201001262051.o0QKpfjL012846-at-ns.microscopy.com} 5, 22 -- X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) 5, 22 -- X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at email.arizona.edu ==============================End of - Headers==============================
I find the two very similar. Beginners should follow the recipe/protocol. Intermediate practitioners can modify existing recipe/protocol. Masters can start from scratch and come up with something truly extraordinary (good or bad :-).
I just try not to mix the ingredients between the two!!
David
On Jan 27, 2010, at 8:59 AM, Chris.Guerin-at-dmbr.vib-UGent.be wrote:
} } } } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of } America } To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver } On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } Hi All: } } At the risk of wasting time with off topic posts I have to chime in. } } Having been both a professional chef and a scientist I think I can } say with some authority that if you are good at one chances are you } will be good at the other, at least in as much as wet lab work goes. } The combination of being able to follow a protocol (recipe) while at } the same time having enough creativity and knowledge of the } principles to experiment a bit and perhaps improve upon it are very } advantageous in both the lab and the kitchen. Add to that some } manual dexterity, patience and a sense of genuine joy in the } possibility of achieving something great and you will get either a } very good cook (and) or a very good scientist. Whenever I interview } someone for a technical post I ask if they like to cook, those that } do generally work out well in the lab. } } I will also share that my first kitchen job was as a prep cook. For } those who don't know a prep cook is the sorry creature who gets to } do all the messy, difficult and downright disgusting jobs the chef } no longer wants to do; so you see, it was also excellent training } for being a grad student. } } Best wishes, Chris } } Christopher Guérin, Ph.D. } Leader, Microscopy Core } Dept. for Molecular Biomedical Research } Flanders Institute of Biotechnology (VIB) } University of Ghent, Belgium } } ==============================Original } Headers============================== } 6, 32 -- From Chris.Guerin-at-dmbr.vib-UGent.be Wed Jan 27 09:56:56 2010 } 6, 32 -- Received: from smtp2.UGent.be (smtp2.ugent.be } [157.193.49.126]) } 6, 32 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP } id o0RFuu76025643 } 6, 32 -- for {Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 09:56:56 } -0600 } 6, 32 -- Received: from localhost (mcheck2.ugent.be [157.193.49.249]) } 6, 32 -- by smtp2.UGent.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F803449F3C } 6, 32 -- for {Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 16:56:55 } +0100 (CET) } 6, 32 -- X-Virus-Scanned: by UGent DICT } 6, 32 -- Received: from smtp2.UGent.be ([157.193.49.126]) } 6, 32 -- by localhost (mcheck2.ugent.be [157.193.43.11]) (amavisd- } new, port 10024) } 6, 32 -- with ESMTP id KzoluC8-jGCm for {Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com} ; } 6, 32 -- Wed, 27 Jan 2010 16:56:54 +0100 (CET) } 6, 32 -- Received: from smtp.dmbr.UGent.be (dmbr242.fvms.ugent.be } [157.193.189.5]) } 6, 32 -- by smtp2.UGent.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3553449FD2 } 6, 32 -- for {Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 16:56:54 } +0100 (CET) } 6, 32 -- Received: from dmbr129.fvms.ugent.be (dmbr129.fvms.ugent.be } [157.193.200.116]) } 6, 32 -- by smtp.dmbr.UGent.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FAFF8011A } 6, 32 -- for {Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com} ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 16:56:54 } +0100 (CET) } 6, 32 -- From: Chris Guerin {Chris.Guerin-at-dmbr.vib-UGent.be} } 6, 32 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 } 6, 32 -- Subject: Science and cooking } 6, 32 -- Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 16:54:36 +0100 } 6, 32 -- Message-Id: {43BCC00A-43B1-4A95-AF1C-32449EE30810-at-dmbr.vib-UGent.be } } } 6, 32 -- To: Microscopy-at-Microscopy.Com } 6, 32 -- Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) } 6, 32 -- X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) } 6, 32 -- X-Miltered: at mcheck2 with ID 4B606246.001 by Joe's j- } chkmail (http://helpdesk.ugent.be/email/)! } 6, 32 -- X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 4B606246.001/157.193.189.5/ } dmbr242.fvms.ugent.be/smtp.dmbr.UGent.be/ {Chris.Guerin-at-dmbr.vib-UGent.be } } } 6, 32 -- X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 4B606246.001 on smtp2.UGent.be : } j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -} S=0.000 } 6, 32 -- X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham } 6, 32 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit } 6, 32 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by } ns.microscopy.com id o0RFuu76025643 } ==============================End of - } Headers============================== }
==============================Original Headers============================== 8, 23 -- From Elliott-at-arizona.edu Fri Jan 29 16:50:57 2010 8, 23 -- Received: from mailgator.email.arizona.edu (pacer.email.arizona.edu [128.196.133.172]) 8, 23 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0TMovnt022724 8, 23 -- for {MICROSCOPY-at-ns.microscopy.com} ; Fri, 29 Jan 2010 16:50:57 -0600 8, 23 -- Received: from mailgators_amavis (amavis8.email.arizona.edu [10.0.0.236]) 8, 23 -- by mailgator.email.arizona.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B11D63C4ADF1 8, 23 -- for {MICROSCOPY-at-ns.microscopy.com} ; Fri, 29 Jan 2010 15:50:56 -0700 (MST) 8, 23 -- Received: from [150.135.145.126] (unknown [150.135.145.126]) 8, 23 -- by smtpgate.email.arizona.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FAD316FF93A 8, 23 -- for {MICROSCOPY-at-ns.microscopy.com} ; Fri, 29 Jan 2010 15:50:55 -0700 (MST) 8, 23 -- Message-Id: {8F75D894-C0AF-4357-A81B-1959842CEA6E-at-arizona.edu} 8, 23 -- From: David Elliott {Elliott-at-arizona.edu} 8, 23 -- To: Microscopy ListServer {MICROSCOPY-at-ns.microscopy.com} 8, 23 -- In-Reply-To: {201001271559.o0RFx2tf032641-at-ns.microscopy.com} 8, 23 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed; delsp=yes 8, 23 -- Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) 8, 23 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] Science and cooking 8, 23 -- Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 15:50:54 -0700 8, 23 -- References: {201001271559.o0RFx2tf032641-at-ns.microscopy.com} 8, 23 -- X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) 8, 23 -- X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at email.arizona.edu 8, 23 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 8, 23 -- X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.microscopy.com id o0TMovnt022724 ==============================End of - Headers==============================
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Message: OK. I have some glass filters that I want to do SEM on. I know they will charge like mad unless I use extremely low KV. However, my 'free' SEM is limited to one that is not able to be used at that voltage. Over the years, I have looked at these types of filters but I was wonder if there are there any new techniques out there? I don't need high magnification. Thanks, Vicky
Victoria M. Bryg Research Associate NCSER at NASA Glenn (216)433-9628 21000 Brookpark Rd. Cleveland, OH 44135
Given a choice, I would use a variable pressure SEM starting at 60 Pa of residual atmosphere (my choice is helium). That should allow imaging at moderate voltages of 15-20 kV using backscattered imaging (i.e., moderate beam currents). We do it routinely and can achieve magnifications of a few thousand times.
Of course, that presume you have such an SEM available. Aside from that, you are probably left at using lower voltages to do what you can. Perhaps tilting the specimen can increase the yield of secondary electrons from the surface so that such low voltages are not required. ________________________________________ X-from: victoria.m.bryg-at-nasa.gov [victoria.m.bryg-at-nasa.gov] Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 8:11 PM To: wesaia-at-iastate.edu
This Question/Comment was submitted to the Microscopy Listserver using the WWW based Form at http://www.microscopy.com/MLFormMail.html --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Remember this posting is most likely not from a Subscriber, so when replying please copy both victoria.m.bryg-at-nasa.gov as well as the MIcroscopy Listserver ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: OK. I have some glass filters that I want to do SEM on. I know they will charge like mad unless I use extremely low KV. However, my 'free' SEM is limited to one that is not able to be used at that voltage. Over the years, I have looked at these types of filters but I was wonder if there are there any new techniques out there? I don't need high magnification. Thanks, Vicky
Victoria M. Bryg Research Associate NCSER at NASA Glenn (216)433-9628 21000 Brookpark Rd. Cleveland, OH 44135
Can you coat them with Au/Pd or some other sputter coated metal? It is thin and can be wiped off after use/analysis. I would not recommend pure Au. Pd is probably better...IMO.
It would seem that the main issue is to remove the coating without affecting the optical quality of the glass. Perhaps you could try a sacrificial specimen and see if this works. I have done this on cover slips without any problems. But of course, these are different specimens.
gary g.
At 06:12 PM 1/29/2010, you wrote:
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==============================Original Headers============================== 9, 20 -- From gary-at-gaugler.com Sun Jan 31 20:26:46 2010 9, 20 -- Received: from smtp3.mc.surewest.net (qsmtp.mc.surewest.net [66.60.130.145]) 9, 20 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with SMTP id o112QjgU022189 9, 20 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Sun, 31 Jan 2010 20:26:45 -0600 9, 20 -- Message-Id: {201002010226.o112QjgU022189-at-ns.microscopy.com} 9, 20 -- Received: (qmail 23494 invoked from network); 31 Jan 2010 18:25:38 -0800 9, 20 -- Received: by simscan 1.1.0 ppid: 23480, pid: 23490, t: 0.1123s 9, 20 -- scanners: regex: 1.1.0 attach: 1.1.0 9, 20 -- Received: from unknown (HELO thor.gaugler.com) (66.60.171.211) 9, 20 -- by smtp3 with SMTP; 31 Jan 2010 18:25:38 -0800 9, 20 -- X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 9, 20 -- Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 18:26:36 -0800 9, 20 -- To: victoria.m.bryg-at-nasa.gov 9, 20 -- From: Gary Gaugler {gary-at-gaugler.com} 9, 20 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] viaWWW: SEM of glass filters 9, 20 -- Cc: MSA listserver {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} 9, 20 -- In-Reply-To: {201001300212.o0U2CBCs017673-at-ns.microscopy.com} 9, 20 -- References: {201001300212.o0U2CBCs017673-at-ns.microscopy.com} 9, 20 -- Mime-Version: 1.0 9, 20 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed ==============================End of - Headers==============================
By the time I connect to grid you probably will receive multiple responses with similar suggestions, but anyway: from my somewhat limited experience of imaging photolithography masks (Quartz substrate charges like mad and retains charge under the surface) E-SEM in wet mode has inherent charge neutralization mechanism which works beautifully for dielectric materials. I am sure you could find an E-SEM in one of the universities nearby...
Good Luck :) Valery Ray ================================= PBS&T, MEO Engineering Co., Inc. 290 Broadway, Suite 298 Methuen, MA 01844 USA Phone: +1-978-296-5063 US Mobile: +1-978-305-0479 Skype: pbstmeo E-mail: vray-at-partbeamsystech.com
victoria.m.bryg-at-nasa.gov wrote: } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } The Microscopy ListServer -- CoSponsor: The Microscopy Society of America } To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver } On-Line Help http://www.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } This Question/Comment was submitted to the Microscopy Listserver } using the WWW based Form at http://www.microscopy.com/MLFormMail.html } --------------------------------------------------------------------------- } Remember this posting is most likely not from a Subscriber, so when replying } please copy both victoria.m.bryg-at-nasa.gov as well as the } MIcroscopy Listserver } --------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } Email: victoria.m.bryg-at-nasa.gov } Name: Vicky Bryg } } Organization: NCSER at NASA Glenn } } Title-Subject: [Filtered] SEM of glass filters } } Message: OK. I have some glass filters that I want to do SEM on. I } know they will charge like mad unless I use extremely low KV. } However, my 'free' SEM is limited to one that is not able to be used } at that voltage. Over the years, I have looked at these types of } filters but I was wonder if there are there any new techniques out } there? I don't need high magnification. } Thanks, } Vicky } } Victoria M. Bryg } Research Associate } NCSER at NASA Glenn } (216)433-9628 } 21000 Brookpark Rd. } Cleveland, OH 44135 } } Login Host: 128.156.10.80 } --------------------------------------------------------------------------- } } ==============================Original Headers============================== } 7, 11 -- From zaluzec-at-microscopy.com Fri Jan 29 20:10:04 2010 } 7, 11 -- Received: from [10.71.0.187] ([12.46.250.10]) } 7, 11 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0U2A2OX015381 } 7, 11 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Fri, 29 Jan 2010 20:10:04 -0600 } 7, 11 -- Mime-Version: 1.0 } 7, 11 -- Message-Id: {p06240800c7894549811f-at-[192.168.0.131]} } 7, 11 -- Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 21:10:00 -0500 } 7, 11 -- To: microscopy-at-microscopy.com } 7, 11 -- From: victoria.m.bryg-at-nasa.gov (by way of MicroscopyListserver) } 7, 11 -- Subject: viaWWW: SEM of glass filters } 7, 11 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" } ==============================End of - Headers============================== }
==============================Original Headers============================== 5, 24 -- From vray-at-partbeamsystech.com Sun Jan 31 23:19:48 2010 5, 24 -- Received: from smtp110.biz.mail.re2.yahoo.com (smtp110.biz.mail.re2.yahoo.com [206.190.53.9]) 5, 24 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with SMTP id o115JmJN008837 5, 24 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Sun, 31 Jan 2010 23:19:48 -0600 5, 24 -- Received: (qmail 59508 invoked from network); 1 Feb 2010 05:19:47 -0000 5, 24 -- Received: from c-75-67-13-146.hsd1.ma.comcast.net (vray-at-75.67.13.146 with plain) 5, 24 -- by smtp110.biz.mail.re2.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Jan 2010 21:19:47 -0800 PST 5, 24 -- X-Yahoo-SMTP: uAyKK5KswBAjZhZMlPsYQD5LzI3g76eLm7jfTA-- 5, 24 -- X-YMail-OSG: hQ.f.jAVM1k0PY8a88cvuYN6uqO0f.4RT7PB.8qjx27GIZfbNUKvTLlNoMuyZWQ7RcIF0cCeIxty3HZdDOAjNCq5jTR.CHvnwyRcDeJVDPide7M4rR0Sck8zepwzoesLxM5JeKtpo3hW0nDf1gBliuYHplLLWS2HIcYwlGIa6oyvmZ0LTtQOiNY3RjeL0P3ch3FHVmWc1nq1rBs2nnMICMNe_FKWDoLdTAjHyEThCmbZs9WbGbC.eLwPWXj9Bp0CAdDL4VzOK8dbb5X4mBW3mc4GHjqHfYYPI7y0S2LUhf0Ivy3o.4FUufyfuiXthJkvRS1uciWGrAsVZYBs4th6QuZcOZL.J8U7yLoCSAYgxSSXsI10hxV6MLVVsCDjlCcmJNTBbdzU6pyNgriBIMw744kPrJUZ9pY_36f4YtCGNGV0Kkkk0THC.4xiGB919lPE7jRxsMFqReDIQF5nn7U6pAz7SHNJsGf8iBnvXEd_Kb11tYrR3JTUJSHqg04dfRnYbQiE.mqyJGZqs2tENQkEie3xw7MLrhlZ0WsCrir1Z1MXF347wzuLOMscHnstcMYkzl6nIYEITc4pMQ-- 5, 24 -- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 5, 24 -- Message-ID: {4B666475.7050707-at-partbeamsystech.com} 5, 24 -- Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 00:19:49 -0500 5, 24 -- From: "vray-at-partbeamsystech.com" {vray-at-partbeamsystech.com} 5, 24 -- Reply-To: vray-at-partbeamsystech.com 5, 24 -- Organization: PBS&T 5, 24 -- User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) 5, 24 -- MIME-Version: 1.0 5, 24 -- To: victoria.m.bryg-at-nasa.gov 5, 24 -- CC: microscopy-at-microscopy.com 5, 24 -- Subject: Re: [Microscopy] viaWWW: SEM of glass filters 5, 24 -- References: {201001300211.o0U2BjeB016872-at-ns.microscopy.com} 5, 24 -- In-Reply-To: {201001300211.o0U2BjeB016872-at-ns.microscopy.com} 5, 24 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed 5, 24 -- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ==============================End of - Headers==============================
Hi Vicky, All good suggestions. In the past I've used sliver paint to ground the sample to the stud but you need enough sample you can discard the bad preps. When the viscosity of the drying paint is just about right, it will wet about half the thickness of your sample. That the goal. I gold coat the sample twice, once with the sample facing the source and once with the sample at an angle to the source. I try to get conductive material all the way around my fibers but I never succeed completely. I don't like to use a lot of gold on any sample, so for me, a couple seconds of normal operation is fine. Your samples may need more. Lowering your Kv always helps, even it's just to 15 from 25kv.
It seems that just pumping the SEM chamber down, causes the glass fibers to shift, exposing non-conductive surfaces no matter what you do.
Frankly, I also learned to live with a certain amount of charging. It's a trade off between my goals, the equipment available and the amount of work I need to accomplish these goals. Many times I just want to reduce the charging to see my particles and keep them from flying off the sample. Other times I need a image for a report so the amount of work I put into it changes.
Low vacuum SEM, if you can live with backscatter electron images works well on charging plastic, but I don't know how it will work on haystacks of glass fibers.
stay safe........ Frank
victoria.m.bryg-at-n asa.gov To 01/29/2010 09:20 frank_karl-at-lincolnelectric.com PM cc
Subject Please respond to [Microscopy] viaWWW: SEM of glass victoria.m.bryg-at-n filters asa.gov
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Message: OK. I have some glass filters that I want to do SEM on. I know they will charge like mad unless I use extremely low KV. However, my 'free' SEM is limited to one that is not able to be used at that voltage. Over the years, I have looked at these types of filters but I was wonder if there are there any new techniques out there? I don't need high magnification. Thanks, Vicky
Victoria M. Bryg Research Associate NCSER at NASA Glenn (216)433-9628 21000 Brookpark Rd. Cleveland, OH 44135
==============================Original Headers============================== 7, 11 -- From zaluzec-at-microscopy.com Fri Jan 29 20:10:04 2010 7, 11 -- Received: from [10.71.0.187] ([12.46.250.10]) 7, 11 -- by ns.microscopy.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o0U2A2OX015381 7, 11 -- for {microscopy-at-microscopy.com} ; Fri, 29 Jan 2010 20:10:04 -0600 7, 11 -- Mime-Version: 1.0 7, 11 -- Message-Id: {p06240800c7894549811f-at-[192.168.0.131]} 7, 11 -- Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 21:10:00 -0500 7, 11 -- To: microscopy-at-microscopy.com 7, 11 -- From: victoria.m.bryg-at-nasa.gov (by way of MicroscopyListserver) 7, 11 -- Subject: viaWWW: SEM of glass filters 7, 11 -- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" ==============================End of - Headers==============================
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I'm looking for suggestions on software that can automatically count total grains and also do size analysis. The images would be from a FIB and be of various metal samples.
Any ideas out there?
Thanks
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